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Genesis Casino - Slow withdrawal process

RESOLVED
Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 20, 2018.

I am having an issue with genesis casino.

My documents were verified on the 6th of December and I waited a week for the first withdrawal which didn't happen so I cancelled it and played with the funds. I then managed to win and made three separate withdrawals on The 14-12-18.
I have contacted them a number of times but I keep getting fobbed off with security checks.
The initial problem was that I used my wife's debit card as we use that as our joint account, this was sorted out with both my wife's and my i.d and she signed a form they sent us to accept I used the card. This was accepted and verified by genesis so I'm wondering what the hold up is now? The money is going back to the same debit card it came from? All in all I have been waiting on a withdrawal from the 6th of December?
Any assistance would be appreciated.

AskGamblers
posted on December 20, 2018.

Dear @Lowestofttim,

Please make sure to update your complaint accordingly and clarify the total amount of the disputed withdrawal request/s.

Thanks for cooperating the AskGamblers Complaints Team.

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 20, 2018.

The amount is £2200 spread over three withdrawals all made the same evening.

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 20, 2018.

After message the chat today it is now apparently with management?
I have also asked for my betting history to be emailed to me so that no have a record of it as on the website I can only see about an hour's worth of slot play.
I was told by the chat host that she will pass this request on to the relevant department.

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 20, 2018.

Attached are my withdrawals I am waiting for.

AskGamblers
posted on December 20, 2018.

Dear @Lowestofttim,

Unfortunately you didn't successfully attach screenshots, please send them directly via email suppor­[email protected]­skg­amb­ler­s.com.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 20, 2018.

I've just emailed them directly. Thanks

posted on December 21, 2018.

Dear LOWESTOFTTIM,
Thank you for getting in touch with us.
I am going to check this now with the finance department. As soon as I have an update I will get back to you.
Many thanks :)

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 21, 2018.

Many thanks,

I would love to know and understand what the hold up is.

Tim

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 21, 2018.

I have also received and forwarded on a copy of my playing history from genesis.

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 21, 2018.

I have just received an email stating that you won't pay because I used my wife's debit card?

However when I used it you sent me a form for myself and my wife to sign and fill out along with both of our passports and a copy of the debit card? You then accepted this and were happy for me to use this card?

It would seem that you are happy to take money but not so keen to give it back when we won?
What was the point in the agreement to be able to use the card if you won't pay out if we win?

I shall email a copy of your email and a copy of your form that you emailed us as evidence.

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 21, 2018.

I have emailed you genesises latest email stating that they won't pay as I can't seem to upload via this site?

I have copies of the form that they asked me to send them but it has our bank details on it so can't send it to you?
I shall try and figure out a way off blanking out the account details and send it to suppor­[email protected]­skg­amb­ler­s.com

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 22, 2018.

So I just wanted to put the full flow of what has happened in detail on here as I'm finding this very difficult not to think I'm not being hard done by.
5th of December I open an account with genesis and deposit £50, £100,£100 total of £250. I then cash out at £300.
6th of December I receive an email from genesis stating that I've used my wife's card and it's against their terms and conditions but if we both send in i.d and fill out the third party form this will be fine. I do this the same day and upload all the documents via the genesis website.
7th or 8th I receive an email saying everything has been accepted and I'm now verified, so I chat on genesis and start trying to find out when the withdrawal of £300 will happen as it's still pending.
14th December, I get bored of waiting and decided to cancel the £300 withdrawal and play with it on their slots, over the course of the evening for the first time ever I actually do very well and managed to get some good wins and cash out the different amounts (in the picture above)

Skip to the 20th after me emailing and online chatting with genesis ever day being told it's a random security check or its being processed or its with management I decided that this has become a problem and open this complaint in the hope someone will listen.

21st someone did listen and sent me the email yesterday saying all winnings are now void and ironically wanted to see a copy of my bank statement so that my (so called) wife's money can be transferred back into my account?!? This wouldn't actually be a problem for our household as my wages go into my account and are transferred into my wife's account to be used like a joint account. But if this actually was fraudulent then surely I would be taking someone else's money? Anyway I digress.

My argument is that if it was ok when the net winnings were £50 why is it different when it's £1950?

Ironically I debited £800 a week before all this happened at dunder so decided to chat with them yesterday evening to find out if my deposits I used with them using my wife's card was ok and they funnily enough said it's against or terms and conditions but it's ok just don't do it again, I then explained this situation with genesis and in a bit shell they said because i didn't know and it's the first time I've done it that genesis legally has to pay the money.

I feel that this has explained things fully up to this date and look forward to hopefully someone at genesis making the right decision.
I will not let this go and are more than happy to go down any paths necessary to retrieve my (very rare) winnings as ultimately Im in the right.

Tim

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 24, 2018.

As it's the Christmas period, it's probably best to give genesis a little extra time to look into this?
A shame it has to be looked into vat all really.

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 25, 2018.

So today (Christmas day)

I received an email saying that the winnings were taken because I breached the bonuses terms and conditions?

I have forwarded this onto ask gamblers support.

It would appear genesis are making it up as they go along?

As I have a copy of all of my bets/spins for December this can be looked at. I believe I have not broken an rules for this either?

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 26, 2018.

I have now been told that the last email was a typo?
And that they are still saying it's the debit card terms and conditions.

Could genesis explain why when I wanted to withdraw a net profit of £50 it was ok and I was simply asked to provide i.d for me and my wife, the debit card and to fill out their third party usage form, but when the profit increased to £1950 they ignored the previous documents I had sent in and hid behind their terms and conditions?

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 26, 2018.

I have also asked for their ADR twice now and had now reply.

posted on December 27, 2018.

Hi LOWESTOFTTIM,
Apologies for the delay in getting back to you over the festive period.
So I have discussed this with the relevant department. As you used a third party payment method on your account - this is a breach of our Terms and Conditions 8.5. 'In relation to deposits and withdrawals of funds into and from Your Account, you shall only use such credit cards and other financial instruments that are valid and lawfully belong to you.'
Due to this - we requested the documentation from the third party to confirm that this card did not belong to you. Once reviewed by management, they confiscated the winnings and refunded the deposits back to the third party card.
I can see that you were also sent an email in error regarding to the Bonus T&Cs - the agent that sent this did explain and apologise for that.
I understand if this isn't the outcome you were hoping for and if you wish to escalate the issue please contact our ADR IBAS at www.ibas-uk.com
I hope this clears things up for you and please let me know if you need anything else.
Kind regards

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 27, 2018.

Hi,

But your third party form (see attached picture above) reads and says that my wife has authorized me to use the card?

It reads, I "wife" hereby authorise "me, husband" to use the debit card in question?

It really can't be any clearer?

That money was won fair and square and the debit card used was authorized for my use by yourselves.

All those documents I sent to you including the form that authorized me to use the card were accepted and verified by yourselves before I even won the money?

Could you confirm that this is your final stand on the matter and you will not give me those winnings so that I can leave this with askgamblers to make a decision, I will then take it further with your ADR.

Thanks

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 27, 2018.

Also no deposits have returned to OUR bank account as it sits in OUR genesis account Less £25 for some administration reason? 🤔

posted on December 27, 2018.

Dear LOWESTOFTTIM,

Thank you for your response.

We request these documents in order to verify the owner of the card and to prevent fraud and money laundering. Unfortunately, even with the documents provided, we are still unable to pay out winnings if someone has used a payment method that does not belong to them.

I understand you must be dissapointed and I apologise about that! I can confirm that this is our final decision and not subject to change. Please contact IBAS if you wish to escalate this as a dispute via them.

Thank you and kind regards

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 27, 2018.

Could you confirm which ADR service you are using please.

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 27, 2018.

I can't find genesis on the website you've supplieds directory?

posted on December 27, 2018.

Dear LOWESTOFTTIM,

Our ADR is IBAS who you can contact at www.ibas-uk.com or by emailing adjudi­cat­ion­@ib­as-­uk.c­o.uk

Please note that you need to log in and request a withdrawal of the remaining funds on your account.

Kind regards

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 27, 2018.

You have got to be kidding me, so you are saying that I log onto genesises website and simply ask for the money to be withdrawn and you will put it back into the account it came from?

I really can't see how you are justifying keeping my winnings other than hiding behind some terms and conditions that I wasn't even aware off.

I find the whole thing rather tasteless and morally corrupted.

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 27, 2018.

On looking at the IBAS website they have advised to ask if this has been escalated to it highest level and that there is no resolution that we can come up with? I believe it has been? Could you confirm please genesis?

posted on December 27, 2018.

Dear LOWESTOFTTIM,

Yes I can confirm that this is our final decision on the case and the only option now is for you to escalate to IBAS.

If you have any questions about the process please let me know.

Kind regards

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 27, 2018.

I will contact IBAS.

All I can ask now is that askgamblers see that this is morally wrong and advise others not to use this casino.

I will certainly be warning people to stay away and shall seek the assistant of as many popular twitch and YouTube spot and gambling steamers as I can to do the same.

It should have been a simple "you've made a mistake" prove that the card can be used by yourself and move on.

The problem however was that I won, and genesis clearly aren't happy paying out winnings.

Lastly does genesis have a reference number I can attach to my IBAS complaint?

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 27, 2018.

Final question on this is that

If I had deposited £800 using the card and lost it all would you be fighting to give the money back?
I doubt it.
And you said that the third party authorisation form you sent was to verify that I wasn't allowed to use the card. I would suggest you change the wording on the form and don't ask the players to fill it out to authorise the use of what you actually mean is the complete opposite.

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 27, 2018.

I have decided to write to the UKGC and the MGA reference this complaint and your company.

I can see that you are hiding behind the terms and conditions but I believe that the whole process has been fraught with discrepancy's and all in all I have not done anything to warrant the removal of my winnings.

I believe these are the details I need to be quoting?

UKGC license number is: 000-04­523­5-R­-32­416­9-007 and your MGA license is: MGA/B2C/314/2015.

Are these correct?

posted on December 28, 2018.

Dear LOWESTOFTTIM,

The third party verification documents were required so that we could identify the owner of the card and to prevent fraud. At no point did we state that by providing these documents your withdrawal would be paid. In fact the original email states 'We have identified that you had deposited with a payment method that is not in your name, this is not allowed and goes against our T&C.'

Yes I can confirm that Genesis Global Limited is licensed and regulated by the Malta Gaming Authority with licence number MGA/B2C/314/2015 and also by the UK Gambling Commission with licence number 000-04­523­5-R­-32­416­9-007.

Many thanks

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 28, 2018.

You didn't say they wouldn't either! It was implied.

Anyway I've had enough of this.

It's all to late now. I am going to the MGA and UKGC to show them how this has been handled.

You can hide behind that but it's clear that morally you are wrong.

I have emailed your head office and have given them my list of complaints.

posted on December 28, 2018.

Dear LOWESTOFTTIM,

I understand your frustration. The next step for you to escalate your complaint is to contact IBAS at www.ibas-uk.com or by emailing adjudi­­ca­t­i­on­­@ib­­as­-­u­k.c­­o.uk.

Of course if you wish to contact the UK Gambling Commission you are within your rights.

If you have any questions about this process please let me know

Kind regards

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 28, 2018.

If it was the case that you said I had broken the terms and conditions, why a week later was I allowed to cancel the withdrawal and continue to play if the money wasn't mine to use? Also why is it now in my genesis account with the instruction to juat "withdraw" it if it's such an issue?

If I had in fact lost all of the money instead of winning would you be paying back the original deposits out of your own pockets?

Surely you can't have it both ways?

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 28, 2018.

I have also opened up another complaint with dunder as the same time I deposited with genesis I deposited with dunder using nthe same card as I had no idea it was a problem.

With dunder I lost but they don't consider the third party card an issue.

With genesis I won and they do consider the third party card an issue.

Who's correct?

posted on December 28, 2018.

Dear LOWESTOFTTIM,

We have forwarded the evidence of this breach to AskGamblers.

I am sorry if this is not the outcome which you hoped for but feel do escalate to IBAS if you wish to take this further.

Kind regards

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 28, 2018.

I hope you sent the whole email as I don't seem to still have that one.n

Any comments on my above two posts?

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 29, 2018.

Could genesis resend the email they sent when they originally said I had broken the terms and conditions as I'm sure it said to fill out the forms to continue with the withdrawal, I have somehow lost this email.
I can't see why I would think that all was ok if you had made it clear that it wasn't?
I definitely wouldn't not of carried on using the funds if you had made that clear.
I don't understand how I was able to use the funds if it was such a big problem?

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 29, 2018.

Final thoughts from me

1. I was initially unaware of the issues regarding using my wife's debit card. If I had realised I would have used my debit card.

2. Once made aware I was firstly asked to fill out your third party form to enable my withdrawal of £50 profit and initial £250 deposits. At this point there was no mention of wrong doing and possibility of winnings being removed. I was simply asked to fill out the form to enable the withdrawal process and verify my account.

3. After completing the verification process including the third party authorisation form my account was verified by yourselves, thus leading me to believe my account was indeed verified and all above board. Again I was lead to believe the third party authorisation form was just as suggested an authorisation form.

4. At no point was I made aware that using the money in my genesis account was a problem, and future play was subject to winnings being removed. Even after daily chat to operators via the genesis website.

5. It then took two to three weeks to decide that you in fact decided not to accept my wife's debit card even though your verification process had already accepted it, this decision was only made after I had made a larger profit on my account.

6. This decision was only made after I had then made higher profits on my account. I believe that if the profit had remained £50 this would not have been an issue.

7. The money in my genesis account was being withdrawn into the same account (my wife's) as it was deposited from. So therefore not an issue.

8. The debit card in question is registered to the same address as myself and is used as a household account even though it's under my wife's name.

9. I have permission from my wife and yourselves to use this debit card.

10. I have been told several different reasons for the slow withdrawal process and at no point was it suggested that my winnings were in jeopardy.

11. I believe that if my profit margin was low or negative then you would not be using this extract from your terms and conditions to this effect.

12. The initial deposits rest in the genesis account in question less a fee of £25 for some reason.

13. To withdraw those funds I have simply been asked to request a withdrawal from my account, thus making the complete process a mockery.

14. Why was I allowed to cancel the initial withdrawal and continue to play if as you suggested I had broken the terms and conditions?

This ultimately has become about the way this has all been handled. I am not an expert gambler and visited the casino to have fun.
I believe the ethics and the lack of transparency from genesis have been questionable at best and I honestly believe that if that profit had stayed small it would have been accepted, the rules explained to me and we would have carried on just like a lot of other casinos do. ( I now know this as I'm fast becoming an expert on the rules and the way casino's use them)

I ask that askgamblers see that genesis are maybe correct as per the book (so I've learnt) but they are definitely not correct in the way this has been handled.

AskGamblers
posted on December 31, 2018.

Dear @Lowestofttim,

AskGamblers Complaints Team is kindly asking you to explain whether the bank account is joint bank account or not? We would greatly appreciate if you could explain that to us. In addition, if it appears to be joint bank account, you would need to provide us with an evidence, proving that claim. Please send the evidence /if any/ directly to suppor­[email protected]­skg­amb­ler­s.com. Please be in aware that you are supposed to reply within the given 96-hours time frame, otherwise AskGamblers Complaints Team will consider the case as Resolved and it will be closed accordingly.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Lowestofttim United Kingdom
posted on December 31, 2018.

Unfortunately it's not. It is in every aspect other than name as both sets of wages are transferred into this account each month.

I can prove that it was my money by showing you my bank details transfering the money into my wife's account each month for the last few years.

I now understand that it's against their terms and conditions but I certainly didn't at the time.
If I had of known I/we would have opened in my wife's name.

I still believe that information wasn't passed onto me correctly from genesis and will be taking this to the MGA and UKGC as a matter of principle.

AskGamblers
posted on December 31, 2018.

AskGamblers Complaints Team has been provided with enough information and evidence on behalf Genesis Casino management in regards of this complaint to confirm and justify the casino actions. Unfortunately, the bank account used by player to place deposits, was not joint bank account, therefore the term #8.5, has been breached.

8.5. In relation to deposits and withdrawals of funds into and from Your Account, you shall only use such credit cards and other financial instruments that are valid and lawfully belong to you. 

We would like to use this occasion and remind the player that it is extremely important to familiarize themselves with the specific terms and conditions of each and every casino before registering account, and/or of bonus terms before claiming them, since those are clearly stated on the casino website.

Based on the above, AskGamblers Complaints Team consider this case as Resolved and it is now officially closed. In case of a disagreement with our decision we remind player that further assistance on this matter could be requested from the relevant regulatory body.

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