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LeoVegas Casino - Game provider manager on duty made a mistake, but casino refused to admit mistake

RESOLVED
Allan2 New Zealand
Posted on January 29, 2018.

The photo was a screenshot taken at 12.31pm Tuesday 23 January 2018 New Zealand time, which can be checked from property of the photo. I uploaded the photo so that people who visit the website can tell me whether the second card for banker is a picture or not.

This is a long story, but I’ll make it short as much as I can.

This happened on January 23 at close to 12:30pm New Zealand time. Game table is baccarat controlled squeeze, dealer is Natalia, hand number is #48. When the dealer dealt the cards, one of the cards was not scanned, so she notified the supervising manager on duty to manually enter the cards. When all 6 cards were shown on the table, they are: player’s hand in order Queen of spades, King of spades, 6 of clubs, banker’s hand in order 3 of clubs, 7 of diamonds, 7 of hearts. So the player’s cards total 0-0-6, and the banker’s cards total 3-7-7. This means banker wins 7 over 6. When the manager manually entered the cards into the system, he entered them in the order of the cards being dealt. He entered Queen of spades, 6 of clubs, King of spades, and instead of entering 7 of diamonds shown on the table, he repeated what he had done for player, he entered King of spades again for banker. He then entered the third cards for player and banker, 6 of clubs, 7 of hearts. This has changed the result of the hand, which is player 0-0-6 winning over 3-0-7. The dealer saw the mistake, and paused there, waiting for the manager to correct. But unfortunately the manager was gone. So the dealer waited there for nearly 2 minutes. This gave me the chance to use my cellphone to take a screen shot of the hand (normally, when a hand finishes, the dealer dismissed the cards straight away, you never have the time to take a photo). I raised the issue with leo support through live chat, they looked at the matter, as they couldn’t see anything wrong in the system, they told me there is nothing wrong with this hand. Of course there is nothing wrong with it, as the system shows whatever is entered correct, whether it is entered correctly or not. So on the following day, I emailed my screenshot to leo support. However, they say the decision was made, and it is the right decision, there is nothing wrong with that hand, player won, banker lost. What is worse, when I chatted with leo in live chat, the girl suggested the photo I provided could be taken any time from any shoe, as there is no time stamped on it, and the photo is too blurry to see. I asked her to tell me whether the second card for banker is a picture or not many times, but she never answered me, which indicates to me she can see it’s not a picture. I also ask her to check property of the photo to see when it was taken, but she said she couldn’t find it. What she really suggest is I fabricated a story, and there is nothing wrong with leo. This really made me crazy. Is it worthwhile for me to fabricate a photo because of a $20 bet? I have asked them to show the photo to the dealer and ask her to confirm, but nobody listened. They insist leo’s decision is correct, I am wrong. On that hand, 93% was bet on banker and 7% was on player. I don’t know if leo will review the matter if 93% was bet on player.

I lodge this complaint not because of my money, but because of the truth!

Posted on January 29, 2018.

Hi Allan,

Thank you for taking the time to submit your complaint and also to have included the screenshot and given such a detailed explanation.

I have sent you over a private message- if you would be so kind as to reply with your LeoVegas email address on the PM and I can then locate your account and have this looked into and we can get this resolved for you.

Thank you again and I hope to hear from you soon.

Nicola.

Allan2 New Zealand
Posted on January 30, 2018.

Hi Nicola,

Thanks for looking at this seriously.
I have sent you a pm with my username and email address at leo. After reading your reply here I feel I am close to the end of the tunnel.

Your asking my email address gives me a feeling you are not at leo support. I think you are on management or decision making level, as for the past 7 days, I have been live chatting with leo support and sent them nearly 10 emails with 4 different photos including the one I have uploaded here. I chatted with more than a dozen people of them, and they know everything, as they bring up chat history and see everything including my username and email address. I thus draw a conclusion that the issue I raised has never left leo support to reach game provider or leo management, as their answers are very similar, like “The issued has been passed onto the game provider Evolution and they have looked at it in great detai”, “There is nothing wrong with that hand”, “ The decision is correct and final” etc. Some of them even copied and pasted what was said in earlier chats by other people. If they had passed this issue on, Evolution could easily talk to the dealer and confirm the mistake. I have given the date, time, dealer name, shoe hand #48 to them. This happened 2018-01-022 at 23:28:35 which is 2018-01-23 23:28:35pm New Zealand time. I took a screenshot of the hand with my phone on 2018-01-023 at 12:31pm New Zealand time. From the time the manager manually entered the cards to the time I took the photo, nearly 2 and a half minutes have passed. This is the time the dealer was waiting, she was waiting for the manager to correct. This long time lapse is extremely abnormal and rare on a baccarat table with any online casinos. If my conclusion is right, it’s very very serious for leo or any casino. That’s why at one stage of a live chat when one of the customer support staff said my photo could be from any time, any shoe, I simply answered “if you suggest my photo was fabricated and false, I’m justified to say Leo robbed gamblers”. Please correct me if I’m wrong and I will certainly apologise.

As for the photo I have uploaded here, I believe anyone, if he enlarges the screenshot big enough, can see clearly second card for banker is 7 of diamonds instead of King of spades, and the result is banker 3-7-7 winning over player’s 0-0-6. Leo support just use as many excuses as possible to dismiss the issue. Anyone not knowing how to check what time and date the screenshot was taken, or similar properties of any other photos, please follow my instructions: Simply download the photo, then go to Download in Windows, find the photo, single click on it, and you will see down at the bottom of the screen properties such as time, date it was taken, size, format, etc of the photo. Sometimes when you right click on a photo and go to properties it will show the same information. Nobody can alter this information, which means my screenshot is 100% true. However if you download the photo, open it, right click on the photo and go to property, it shows the time and date you downloaded and saved it.

Lastly, I want to say it is unacceptable to have leo support staff to say my photo could be from anywhere, any time. I bet hundreds, sometimes even thousands on one hand, so why don’t I fabricate a $2000 bet story and photo?

So I would like to send a message to leo: if you claim to be a mobile king, be the king, but not the lion. Sort your customer support out without any delay.

Again Nicole, thank you very much.

Posted on January 30, 2018.

Hi Allan2,

Thank you for sending over your account email address and also for your message.

I have located your account and been discussing this matter in depth with our games specialists here at LeoVegas.

I have spent time going through the chats which you have had with the Support agents and can see the first time this was reported to us, you specified that the issue was with the last round you had played on the game in question. Therefore the agent then forwarded a report to our games specialists to check the last round played, this was also sent to Evolution who provided us with the following information:

*"Baccarat Control Squeeze round on 2018-01-22 at 23:28:35 UTC. In this round the following situation took place:

While the dealer was dealing cards, one of them did not get scanned. Hence, the Service Manager on duty entered the cards manually and the game was resolved. The outcome of the round is therefore correct and official."*

LeoVegas then made the decision to refund your original stake of $20 NZD back to your gaming account as a gesture of goodwill. So in effect the round which was stated by yourself, we looked into and the above was discovered having consulted with Evolution directly.

I can understand your frustration with our support staff mentioning that the screenshot could be from 'anywhere'- having checked the image with the specialists- this does not show our logo however or a time stamp and Evolution do indeed supply their games to a number of other online casinos. Having said that this doesn't discredit from the amount which you have bet in the casino here at LeoVegas.

I am also sorry if it appeared that the Support agents were repeating themselves, when an issue is passed back from our back office departments- Support then convey whatever message that department have for the customer- in this case the agents were complying with what they had been informed of and if that message is that the result is correct, then the agents will reiterate this. The agents themselves have a basic knowledge of the games in the casino- they are not games specialists by any means, which is why cases such as this are passed onto the back office specialist teams to work through with the game providers if this is deemed necessary.

I can appreciate that this is not the response which you were hoping for but we did investigate the round which you specified the error on and the outcome was then reported back to you by our Support agents. I have also attached a screenshot of the outcome of the round which you reported to us.

Kind regards

Nicola.

Allan2 New Zealand
Posted on January 30, 2018.

Hi Nicola,

Thanks for doing the investigation and give me a detailed explanation. Though the result is not the fact, I do appreciate your attitude and prompt action.

All I want to say is your screenshot is that of the system, while mine is that of the actual hand shown on the table. As I have said, the system takes whatever being entered correct, irrespective of whether it is entered correctly or not. The manager entered into the system a wrong card for banker, but the system doesn’t know it’s wrong, and that’s the fact.

Having said all I need to say here, I need to move on and don’t want to waste any more time as this will take me nowhere.

Again thank you very much for the help!

Allan

Posted on January 31, 2018.

Hi Allan,

Thank you very much for getting back to me and I'm sorry to hear that you do not feel my answer is correct- I have spent time looking into this myself and also discussing the case at length with our in-house specialists.

We are licensed by both the UKGC and the MGA and we are simply not allowed to have systems which do not report the correct results, which is the same for the game provider Evolution who also hold gaming licenses and whom are not allowed to inform us of incorrect information.

You are welcome for any help which I or the Support Staff here at Leo have provided you and we are always here to answer questions from our customers 24/7.

May I take this opportunity Allan to wish you all the best and thank you for your correspondence.

Allan2 New Zealand
Posted on February 1, 2018.

Hi Nicola,

Thanks for taking the time to answer me. Initially I decided not to go any further with this. However after I see your comment here, I have changed my mind. When you said there is no leo logo on my photo, and no time stamp, my answer is, that’s right, because there is no leo logo on the baccarat game at all when you play it whether you are on full screen or not. There is a time stamp, but it is very hard to see even on the screen, so the time stamp doesn’t show in a photo, unless it’s a screenshot with the device you use. I have said I used my phone to take the screenshot, so that doesn’t show up. To prove this, simply create a leo account, deposit money and click on the baccarat controlled squeeze game, and you will see what I have said is right.

I believe your decision was not made you you, but by Evolution. If you really want to find out the fact, I can help you to do it. So firstly, please answer one question: do you have the history of every hand of that shoe in question?

Thanks

Allan

Posted on February 1, 2018.

Hi Allan,

Thank you for coming back to me.

Evolution are one of our game providers- they have to keep records of rounds for themselves and also in accordance with their licensing. When we ask for their assistance- such as we did with your query- they checked their records and provided us with an answer which we then conveyed to you.

Kind regards

Nicola

AskGamblers
Posted on February 1, 2018.

Dear @Allan2,

Please confirm if the issue has been resolved. Keep in mind that in case you fail to respond within the given time frame we will consider your issue as resolved and your complaint will be closed accordingly.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Allan2 New Zealand
Posted on February 1, 2018.

Hi Nicola,

Can you please bring up a record of the history of that shoe and check the result of all the hands dealt. Then please tell me if the following is corrects:

Result of the shoe is (in the order of hands):
1) tie on 1
2) banker wins
3) banker wins
4) player wins
5) player wins
6) banker wins
7) player wins on 6
8) banker wins on 7
9) banker wins on 7
10) banker wins on 7
11) banker wins on 5
12) player wins on 7
13) player wins on 8
14) player wins on 6
15) player wins on 7
16) banker wins on 9
17) banker wins on 2
18) banker wins on 9
19) banker wins on 8
20) player wins on 8

I believe you can draw a conclusion that I also have a record of that shoe don’t you.

Thanks and I’m waiting for you to com back to me.

Allan2 New Zealand
Posted on February 1, 2018.

Dear AskGamblers,

This is close to the end of this issue, we’ll all know the result soon.

Thanks very much for bearing with me.

Allan2 New Zealand
Posted on February 2, 2018.

Hi Nicola,

Result of the rest rounds from #21 hand are:

21) banker wins on 9
22) banker wins on 5
23) player wins on 6
24) banker wins on 9
25) player wins on 9
26) player wins on9
27) player wins on 6
28) banker wins on 8
29) banker wins on 9
30) banker wins on 5
31) tie on 7
32) player wins on 6
33) tie on 9
34) tie on 4
35) player wins on 9
36) tie on 8
37) player wins on 5
38) banker wins on 4
39) banker wins on 7
40) player wins on 8
41) banker wins on 9
42) player wins on 6
43) banker wins on 6
44) player wins
45) player wins on 6
46) tie on 7
47) banker wins on 5

If you don’t play baccarat, you might not know how I keep history of all these 47 hands. Let me tell you this. You see the screenshot I have uploaded. All the history and results are there. On the right hand side of the screenshot, in the top rectangle frame there are solid red, blue and green circles with numbers inside, and down in another frame there are red and blue circles, all the results are recorded there. The top frame is called “3 road” by baccarat players, while the second frame is called “big road”. The sequence is counted from top to bottom, and then from left to right. A red circle, whether it is solid or not, represents a banker win, a blue circle is a player win, and a yellow solid circle in the top frame is a tie hand. But a tie hand is a green slash in the second frame. The numbers in the solid circles are the winning number of that hand. All the 47 hands I have written above are from my screenshot.

Now comes to the discrepancy, number 48 hand. You can see #48 on the right hand side on top above the “3 road” frame. You can also see the last blue solid circle in the top frame with number 6 inside, which means a player winning on 6. This result was manually entered by the manager on duty at Evolution, and the system accepted that as the correct result. However, if you look at the cards on the table in the photo, player’s hand is 0-0-6 (6 is the last card dealt for player), but banker’s hand is 3-7-7. This means banker wins 7 over player’s 6. This is what I have been talking about many many times. So in the top frame, #48 hand should be a solid red circle with a 7 in it. Because when manually entering the numbers, the manager repeatedly entered two King of spades, one for player and one for banker, but in fact he should have entered a 7 of diamonds for banker as shown on the table. Unlike other baccarat tables where if a card doesn’t get scanned, the manager simply rescan it and no mistake can be made, while on baccarat controlled squeeze, the manager interacts with the dealer by a video camera, and if a card doesn’t get scanned, he check the cards in the camera and manually enters the cards into the system. If the manager is not careful enough, a mistake can easily be made, as has happened in #48 hand.

Now you should know the result, and so does everyone reading this complaint.

Thanks very much, and hope you can convey this to Evolution or your team as the correct result of that hand.

Allan

Allan2 New Zealand
Posted on February 5, 2018.

Hi Nicola,

It’s Tuesday now and I believe you are back to work. So what is the story now?

I’ve been thinking of one thing - the coverup of the whole issue. Questions i have to ask are “when the dealers at your game providers went through their training, what were they taught to do if an issue took place? Were they told to report? If so, and if the dealer Natalia reported to Evolution, why didn’t the game provider correct it or report to Leo? If Evolution reported to leo, why didn’t leo correct it?” So at least one thing is clear - either Leo or Evolution, or the dealer covered up the issue. This becomes serious when the mistake favours the house. As you can see from my screenshot, only one gambler bet on player, and 93% was bet on banker. Is that the reason for coverup?

I look forward to your or Leo’ reply to my questions.

Thanks

Allan

AskGamblers
Posted on February 5, 2018.

Dear LeoVegas Team,

AskGamblers Complaints Team believe that in cases referring to an obvious software glitch, the most adequate and competent feedback on the issue could and should be provided by the relevant  software company which is directly responsible for the fairness and reliability of their software products or games in this particular situation. Therefore we kindly ask you to provide an official report from the affected games producer, Evolution Gaming, containing details and explanation of the reported issue supported by all the relevant proofs where possible. 


Please keep in mind that we are also awaiting a reasonable explanation of the fact that there is obvious discrepancy between the second banker card shown on the attached player's card and the one displayed on the screenshot provided in your response from January, 30th. Of course, if you believe player's screenshot was not a genuine one or has been somehow manipulated, AskGamblers Complaints Team strongly encourage you to provide all the relevant proofs that could back-up your allegations if any.  

We thank you in advance for your cooperation and looking forward receiving the requested information as soon as possible.

Posted on February 6, 2018.

Hi Allan,

We are currently awaiting a reply from Evolution regarding the hand in question, as I have sent this for further investigation along with your additional explanation of the situation.

This is of course something that we would like to see a resolution of, however I will not be able to provide any further information, before we have a reply from Evolution.

Best regards and thank you for your patience,
Jakob

Allan2 New Zealand
Posted on February 6, 2018.

Hi Jakob,

Thanks for the reply, let’s wait for the investigation result from Evolution. Please kindly remind Evolution that a thorough investigation should include, but not limited to, checking results of all 47 hands of that shoe to see if they match the results of my screenshot, talking to the dealer, showing her my screenshot and asking her why she waited for about 2.30 minutes after the result was entered.

Cheers

Allan

Allan2 New Zealand
Posted on February 9, 2018.

Hi Jakob,

I wonder when the investigation ends up with a result.
On the other hand, do Evolution have surveillance cameras? Looks like they do, as the manager acts through a video camera. If the do, they can easily check the video record to find out.

Thanks

Allan

Posted on February 11, 2018.

Hi Allan,

We have now received a reply from Evolution, and i can see that a member of our customer support team have also sent you an email regarding this.

There did occur an error in relation to the manually entered card, and the wrong card was entered as you previously stated.
The correct winnings was therefore credited to your account earlier today.

We fully understand if this issue have been an inconvenience, and apologise for the error.
I am however happy to see that the issue with your game round is now resolved, despite the long processing time.

Should you have any other queries, you are more than welcome to get in touch with our customer support.

Have a great day,
Jakob

Allan2 New Zealand
Posted on February 12, 2018.

HI Jakob,

Thanks for letting me know the result. I’m happy the mistake has been corrected and the issue is now resolved. I also appreciate the attitude of Leo, and the game provider Evolution, towards resolving the issue, as casinos never lose unless they lose creditability. We can all move on from now.

Cheers

Allan

Allan2 New Zealand
Posted on February 12, 2018.

Dear AskGamblers,

Thank you so much to help resolve the issue. The website is so wonderful, without which this issue could never have been fixed. The comments made by AskGamblers indicate extremely high professional standard, not only in respect of understanding games, but also fairness, which is very important. I believe that’s why the website is rated among the best. Again thank you very much.

Allan

AskGamblers
Posted on February 12, 2018.

Based on submitter's last post AskGamblers Complaints Team consider this case as Resolved and it is officially closed now.

Thank you all for your cooperation.

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