Winner Casino - request for notorised documents

UNRESOLVED
posted on December 16, 2013.

I won some money on the winner bingo site last week, and following on from that I also won £250 cash as part of their 12 days of Christmas promotion.

I've since requested a withdrawal for some of the money and received an email the next day requesting notorised copies of my passport, a utility bill, and proof of ownership of my moneybookers account that I used to deposit.

Firstly, I contacted moneybookers and they told me there's no such thing as a "proof of ownership" for their accounts, so the best thing I could do is probably send them a copy of the email. Secondly, the address that they've requested I send the documents too is a PO box in the Phillipines. Since the company is based in Gibralter I believe, it seems outrageous that they would ask me to send notorised personal documents that could potentially be used in a fraud into a country that they apparently aren't even based in. Not to mention that this will likely cost a lot of money to get the documents notorised and to send them by courier. Finally, I don't think I can send by recorded delivery because the address they've given me is a PO box.

I've spoken to support and I'm more than willing to send any documents by email, or to send notorised documents to somewhere in the UK or Gibralter, but I'm not willing to put myself at risk by sending them to an unknown place in the Phillipines. They've responded that unless I do so they will refuse to process and withdrawal or return any money.

Is there anyway around this at all? Obviously I won't ever be using this joke of a company again, but I'm worried I'm not going to even get my money back at all. I'm wondering if it's possible to take legal action in this scenario or anything?

posted on December 18, 2013.

Dear adjones56,

All gaming operators need to fall in line with regulatory requirements such as age verification and Money Laundering and Fraud prevention policies. Our requirements stipulate that we should complete these checks once a customer has registered and started transacting with Winner. These practices are not just performed by Winner but are commonplace throughout the industry and we are confident that in this day and age you will agree that the security of the customer along with the business is paramount for all.

Wherever possible we will carry out the checks as quickly as possible and in the majority of instances these checks will be completed with no disruption to the customer's account whatsoever. However there are occasions we ask customers directly and until our verification procedures have been completed we are unable to move forward. As per the terms and condition which all customers agree to upon the creation of their Winner accounts we are in our right to request such information. The terms can be found here: http:/­/ww­w.w­inn­er.c­om­/te­rms­-an­d-c­ond­itions/

Nothing out of the ordinary has been asked of a customer to provide Winner with a notarized copy of their identification. Of course we understand that this process can be inconvenient and we apologize for this however once the documents are received it is highly unlikely any further documentation will be requested and the account will have any restrictions removed. Furthermore, this is not a common request and the only customers required to send this type of documentation are those which are brought to our attention by the Security Department.

Winner is an international business with a number of offices placed across the globe. The offices that the documentation needs to be sent to are indeed in the Philippines, Makati which can clearly be seen on the Help section under "Postal Address". We have a number of customers sending this type of documentation and can only reiterate what is needed to move forward.

In this particular case there are only two outcomes which are that the customer can send the documentation as per the terms which were agree upon and the case can move forward, or, the customer does not send in the documentation in which case the funds will be frozen on the account with the exception of the deposits made - these can be withdrawn should the customer wish so.

We hope that the above information will be sufficient for you and we believe to have resolved the issue.

Best regards,

Winner Risk Management Department

posted on December 18, 2013.

Obviously you haven't resolved the issue.

1 - Asking people to send legally binding certified/notorised documents to the Phillipines IS out of the ordinary, please don't suggest this is commonplace, I've never had anything so ridiculous requested of me in all my years of gambling.

2 - You refuse to tell me what it is that you're actually accusing me of. Money laundering? Fraud? Apparently I've been flagged by your security department but I can't be informed why.

3 - Most ridiculously of all, I've already successfully deposited and made a withdrawal with you in the past. Can I therefore assume that you were acting illegally when you paid out to me previously? What has changed in the meantime? The only difference I can see is that I've won more money and therefore you're trying your best to avoid paying out by making such a ridiculous request.

Once again, I ask you why I'm not able to send normal ID documents, OR send notorised copies to somewhere safer? Again it's obvious to anyone with a brain that this is just a ridiculous stalling tactic and you're hoping people won't bother with it and will therefore allow you to steal there winnings back.

Please let me know ASAP what's changed between my last withdrawal and this latest request, and also what you're accusing me of.

I also note your comment,

"it is highly unlikely any further documentation will be requested and the account will have any restrictions removed."

So basically you've left it open to further stalling tactics, even after I spend the considerable time and money sorting these documents out and paying for them to be couriered halfway around the world.

Have some self respect and just pay the withdrawal you jokers.

posted on December 18, 2013.

Dear adjones56,

Asking for notarized documentation is commonplace within the industry and whilst the Philippines may not be the most ideal destination for some customers, it is where the documentation will be processed. We strongly advise any customers that are required to send the requested documents to do so.

Winner are not at liberty to disclose the findings or conclusions of any security checks performed for a number of reasons but we are at liberty to request further proof as outlined in the terms and conditions. By doing so does not necessarily mean that customers are being accused of anything but rather the security department are trying to satisfy their checks.

For clarification, it is not appropriate for Winner, nor any other business for that matter, to divulge its security procedures, protocols, checks or otherwise as this would have serious ramifications in our on-going efforts in identifying and preventing fraudulent activities. We do however apologize if some customers feel that the responses provided are not elaborate enough. Please also understand that as this is a public forum we are unable to provide account specific information as this would be against the data protection act and thus are explaining the terms set out the best we can in order to move the case forward.

Winner take the steps it finds necessary in order to ensure that our customers are totally safe and feel confident with the products to the services we render. Whether some customers disagree with certain terms and conditions the vast majorities of customers that have had documentation requests fulfil these requests and go back to business as usual.

We strongly advise all customers that create an account with Winner to read the terms and conditions that they agree to upon the registration and creation of their account. Unfortunately Winner will not bear the onus for customers that do not do so and then are subsequently unhappy that we are asking for documentation to satisfy the needs of the security department.

We hope that the above information will be sufficient for you and we believe to have resolved the issue.

Best regards,

Winner Risk Management Department

posted on December 18, 2013.

Your terms and conditions don't mention notorised documentation as shown below:

"6.3 As well as any other verification processes we may undertake, any account holders depositing from debit and credit cards may be required to provide additional proof of identity to assist with age verification before making their first withdrawal. We refer you to section 4 of these General Terms and Conditions which explains more about age verification. Whilst these additional checks are not generally required for credit card users, we reserve the right to request such documentation prior to processing a withdrawal, should circumstances dictate. Therefore, we reserve the right to request specific proof of identity in the form of, including but not limited to: passport number, photocopy of a valid identity document, utility bill or header of a recent card statement."

Specifically note this part as well please:

"6.3 As well as any other verification processes we may undertake, any account holders depositing from debit and credit cards may be required to provide additional proof of identity to assist with age verification before making their first withdrawal."

I didn't make the deposit via debit or credit card, and as stated (and completely ignored by you in your response) this isn't my first withdrawal. None of this was requested of me when I made my first withdrawal.

Finally, note this part of your terms:

6.4 Any documents requested from you must be mailed, scanned, e-mailed or faxed to us at the address and numbers provided on the 24/7 support page.

You're forcing me to mail to the Philippines when your terms state there are other options available including email and fax.

I would like you to acknowledge the above points, and please answer my previous point of why this wasn't required when I made my previous withdrawal. You must have been acting illegally by paying it?

Lastly, if a company of your size with your offices around the globe aren't able to receive the documents in England, and then confirm with your branch in the Philippines (as seems necessary for some odd reason) then you seriously need to think things through a bit more out of respect for your customers.

posted on December 18, 2013.

I would also add that arrogantly stating the below makes you look even more petty:

"We strongly advise all customers that create an account with Winner to read the terms and conditions that they agree to upon the registration and creation of their account. Unfortunately Winner will not bear the onus for customers that do not do so and then are subsequently unhappy that we are asking for documentation to satisfy the needs of the security department."

As you can clearly see, I HAVE read the terms, unfortunately it would seem you haven't as you're the ones twisting them to suit your stalling tactics.

Finally, this comment is an incredible show of intelligence on your part:

"Whether some customers disagree with certain terms and conditions the vast majorities of customers that have had documentation requests fulfil these requests and go back to business as usual."

Imagine then, you steal money from people and tell them to jump through hoops, and they do it. Who would have thought? It's almost like people want their money returned to them!?! wow!

posted on December 20, 2013.

The terms quoted by the customer previously are the general terms for validation of accounts should the technologies and sources being used is unable to determine the authenticity of the information customers lodge against their accounts. These terms are acknowledged in the respect that Winner endeavor to be as clear as possible what some customers may expect to be asked.

As we cannot comment directly on this case in this forum directly we would like to point out that when we have direction from the security department for further checks then there is a without exception a prominent reason for this which is backed up with evidence. Subsequently their finding mean further evidence of authenticity is being sought in the interest of the security of the business and customers who transact with Winner.

For your information the terms in regard to notarized documentation can be found here:

http:/­/bi­ngo.wi­nne­r.c­om/­ter­ms-­and­-co­ndi­tions/

6.6 You shall provide us with all information requested by us and necessary for the operation of the Player Account, including, but not limited to, proof of identity, notarized documentation, proof of address, utility bills, bank details, bank statements and bank references. You shall provide us with any such requested documents immediately upon request and not later than within a reasonable time of response.

However, in the interest of moving the case forward, the decision has been overturned and the need for notarized documentation has now been waivered.

Winner would like to stress at this point is that all issues of this nature are taken on a case by case basis and does not mean further documentation will not be asked for in the future. Nor does this decision mean that other customers that have had notarized documents requested from our security department will have their decision overturned.

posted on December 23, 2013.

I'm very pleased to see that winner casino have seen sense on this issue and revoked the notorised documentation request.

I have now requested the withdrawal again and will await to see if there are any further problems.

AskGamblers
posted on December 30, 2013.

 Is the money received and complaint solved?

posted on December 30, 2013.

No, still ongoing, no funds received yet.

posted on December 30, 2013.

I've now had ANOTHER request for notarized documents, that's 4 times now they've asked AFTER confirming that I no longer need to send them.

Absolute bunch of liars, total crooks.

posted on January 2, 2014.

Dear adjones56,

We would like to inform you that the decision for the requested documents has been overturned in the interests of moving the issue forwards. As the documentation request was overturned the pending withdrawal was released. If documents were still required then this would not be the case and the withdrawal would still be frozen. We can confirm that the withdrawal was process on 31 December 2013 and the funds should be with the customer shortly.

We hope this now resolves the issue and should the customer need any further assistance we are at their disposal.

posted on January 2, 2014.

This is a further complaint after the one I had recently on this site which I had hoped was resolved. You can see the details of the complaint by clicking the link below:


http:/­/ww­w.a­skg­amb­ler­s.c­om/­cas­ino­-co­mpl­ain­ts/­win­ner­-ca­sin­o-r­equ­est­-fo­r-n­oto­ris­ed-­doc­ume­nts­-c3573


They finally agreed to remove the request for notorized documents to be sent to the Philippines as you can see in their response, so I then logged in again and tried to withdraw.


The withdrawal didn't go through (I've been waiting well over a month now) so I went on live chat to check it out and was told that they still haven't received my notorized documents. I explained the situation and after well over an hour on live chat I received an email asking for written confirmation that the document request had been removed. I sent this through as requested.


I assume this was accepted (although they didn't confirm this with me by email). I then received an email saying that I have now been accused of bonus abuse and all of my winnings have been removed. The part of the terms and conditions that they've accused me of breaking wasn't written into the terms and conditions of the offer at the time that I did it and has subsequently been added.


The bonus in question was a 300% sign up bonus and the mistake I made was to bet part of it on sports rather than bingo (all with the same company). The major issue I have with this however, is that after completing the bonus requirements for the sign up offer, I later received a £250 cash bonus as part of the "12 days of Christmas" promotion which was separate from any bonus that I had done before. This was a cash win that came out of the blue and I received an email asking me to send in a picture and testimonial so I could be put on the site.


Well, low and behold, the £250 cash has now been removed from my account as well as the winnings from the other bonus offer that I've been accused of abusing. Confiscating my winnings from that one is bad enough (since they manipulated the terms to suit themselves) however I can accept that if it meant getting the rest of my money back. The fact that they have now stolen ANOTHER £250 for absolutely no reason is mind blowingly ridiculous. They openly admit that I didn't break any terms or conditions, but they just decided to remove that as well as the other winnings and bonus.


I went on live chat with the bingo team again this morning top question this and you just couldn't make this stuff up. They AGAIN said to me that I needed to send in notorised documents. I told them FOR A THIRD TIME that this had been waivered and showed them the confirmation I had in writing, and after another hour on live chat they accepted that and told me they had removed the lock on my account for withdrawals AGAIN.


So that's where I am now,


-STILL NO SIGN OF A WITHDRAWAL after over a month of waiting.

-Well over 3 hours spent on live chat as they STILL tried to get me to send notorized documents after clearly stating on this site that I didn't have to anymore.

-Over £250 taken from me for alleged bonus abuse.

-£250 stolen from me WITHOUT ANY BONUS ABUSE, just because they felt like it with no explanation at all.

-Still completely refused any contact with the finance team or anyone involved with making the decision to steal these funds from me. I simply get passed from one section to another, and have to explain the whole situation again and explain why I don't have to send notorized documents in.


After all of this, I'm even willing to accept the false accusation of bonus abuse and over £250 being taken away, but I refuse to accept that they can steal £250 cash from the account from a bonus that THEY THEMSELVES ADMIT I didn't abuse as it was a totally separate promotion.


If they are willing to let me withdraw my deposit and the £250 christmas promo cash, I will end this complaint now and not pursue it any further. The ball is in your court.

posted on January 2, 2014.

We would like to summarize the details of this case. The player deposited 200 pounds in the Bingo cashier of which he then subsequently received Bingo bonuses relating to that deposit. The player then used the 200 pounds deposit he made in the Bingo cashier to place a sports bet, this contravened our terms and conditions of the Bingo bonus as the player had to play within Bingo product in order for his bonus to be valid. The player was able to use the bonuses in Bingo and was able to generate winnings with them.

At the time the player was playing with his Bingo bonuses Winner Bingo was running a promotion in which a random player who played in the Bingo product would receive a 250 pounds cash bonus. The player in question won this bonus. The 200 pounds sports bet the player placed won with returns of £236.36. His total winnings in the Bingo and Sports Product along with the £250 cash bonus totaled £722.34. As the player was not eligible for the bonus as he did not use his deposit in the Bingo bonus we removed the winnings received with that bonus along with the 250 pounds 12 days of Christmas bonus as he won that with a bonus he was not entitled to.

We subsequently have cut the amount of £536.38 from the original £722.34 request and refunded the amount of £236.36 that was won from the sports bet. The withdrawal was processed on the 31st of December to the players Moneybookers account. If the player has not yet received this we ask that he contacts our customer support team who will be able to provide subsequent proof that the withdrawal was successful so he can take the matter up with Moneybookers.