Slots Magic Casino - Unjustified confiscation of legitimate winnings

UNRESOLVED
267Talcums Australia
posted on August 13, 2015.

I made a withdrawal of $4000 on the 06/08/15 with SLOTS MAGIC casino and it was confiscated on the 08/08/15 with no warning and no reason until i investigated the matter. After a number of emails from me to the VIP Manager indicating my shock, they decided to send $400 to my neteller account without communicating with me.
I had deposited $200 into a bonus "VIPKICK3" and had deposited thousands of dollars prior to the $200.
I will try to explain the events in point form if that helps.
1. I was told my bets were >10% of the bonus.
2. I made sure my bets were <10%, my largest bet was $4 whilst the bonus was in play.
3. The VIP Manager said that my gambled winnings were counted as a bet.
4. So on a number of occasions I would quadruple my winnings and turn it into thousands of dollars. Example $2.50 bet, win $55.55, hit the quadruple gamble button win $222.20 then $888.80, then $3555 (which I actually did).
5. They consider the $3555 winning as a bet.
6. I read the bonus rules prior to playing and there is no indication that the winnings cannot be doubled or quadrupled, bonus play or not bonus play.
7. i told them that the bet is the initial outlay ($2.50) not the winnings ($3555).
8. All I ask is, how was I to know after reading the bonus rules thoroughly that i was not allowed to gamble my winnings above the 10%. It says no such thing in there bonus rules. i consciously kept my bets below 10% as not to breach the rules. The casino has every right to confiscate my winnings if they can back it up with their law - the bonus policy, but it is never explained in regards to the doubling or quadrupling gamble button.
9. Why would the casino allow me use these slots with the gamble button. The slots I played were not on the banned list in there bonus rules.
10. I have attached a couple of email quotes from the VIP Managers.
A. "Even though the bonus policy does not say specifically about the gamble
feature, it is considered as a bet since it is something you bet / gamble.
B. "The gamble feature is available for you to use if you do not have
an active bonus or if the winnings that you will place as a bet to
double them are less that 10% (or 5 or 10) of the bonus amount."
Very clear in the email but not in the BONUS RULES which is their law.
11. i believe SLOTS MAGIC still owe me $4000 - $400 = $3600, as their explanation that my gambled winnings count as a bet is not backed up by their bonus policy.
12. I believe these winnings are not the bet, the bet is the initial outlay.
13. Doubling or quadrupling your winnings on a slot are part of the fundamentals of gambling at a casino. The slots have a bet button and a gamble button. It says no such thing in the bonus rules that you CANNOT gamble your winnings.
14. Overall my bets were always <10%.
15. i used the gamble button on the slots to take small winnings of $10 - $50 to thousands of dollars, very difficult to do.
16. I believe I am owed the remaining $3600 in winnings.

Please advise if you think I have breach the bonus rules, because I cannot find where I went wrong.
I have attached some photo files of the email correspondence. I have the whole PDF file if required.
Thank you
Kind Regards
Robert

posted on August 13, 2015.

Hi Robert,

Allow me to address and clarify the issue with regards to the recent winnings being voided, due to Bonus Policy breach.

I have thoroughly checked your gameplay and the interactions you’ve had with our VIP agents as I wanted to be sure to have all the facts before responding to your post.

The act of gambling, as per English dictionary, is defined as the act of making a wager or making a bet. Our casino’s terms and condition refer to gambling as the act of placing bets/ wagers but the terms are synonyms therefore it’s implied they refer to the same action.

The maximum bet limitation while redeeming a deposit bonus, includes but is not limited to any straight bet, multiplier or gamble feature available in any of our games. Gamble and Bet are the same action because they both have the same direct output on the balance by giving a payout, and they are registered the same way in all our games as you can also see in the Game History in your account. These being said, any bet/ gamble or wager placed in our games while having an active bonus will be subject to our Bonus Policy.

The terms in question mention that, while making bets to wager any deposit bonus, if your deposit bonus is 100% or more the maximum bet is 5, or 10% of the deposit bonus amount (the lower of the two amounts apply). Failure to comply with these rules means you are in breach of our bonus terms and we reserve the right to void and remove any winnings.

On the 6th of August you claimed a 110% deposit bonus with your deposit of 200 AUD hence the maximum wager allowed was 5 AUD. You were in breach of the terms in question, by making multiple bets/wagers/gambles that were higher than 5 units whilst having an active bonus. As a consequence and fully in line with our terms, your winnings were removed. However your VIP manager obtained an exception for you and managed to sent you 400 AUD as a gesture of goodwill.

I hope that this has clarified the matter for you.


Best Regards,
Krystal

267Talcums Australia
posted on August 13, 2015.

Krystal
I have been gambling for 25 years and your trying to convince me that a bet is the same as your winnings, that's preposterous! Lets create an everyday scenario: I go to the track put a $200 bet on a 4/1 shot and win $800. I turn to my friend and say I just won $800, he/she says to me what was your initial outlay, I say $200 bucks. THE $800 WAS NOT THE BET!
My argument is that your bonus rules do not mention and are not evident in identifying the gamble feature on the slots, so it lead to me thinking well as long as I keep my bet below 10% I can double or quadruple my winnings as much as i want. How was I to know that I was not allowed to double my winnings over the 10% bonus. i was so conscious of keeping my bets below $5, the biggest bet i had was $4. Now your casino is saying that the $55 win I quadrupled from a $2.50 outlay to $3555 is a BET!
Krystal, I give you credit for clearly interpreting your bonus rules as you have outlined above (especially paragraph 4), but that's just it, your making interpretations or assumptions that "we the clients" understand a bet is the same as a gambled win. We cant read between the lines and nor should we, your bonus policy is the legislation of the casino. You need to make clear and concise statements in your bonus policy, so there are no misinterpretations by the clients. Can you understand what I'm trying to say, how would I have known. As i have mentioned in previous emails to your VIP managers you could make the statement more clear in your bonus rules policy. Such as in an email quoted by one of your VIP Managers - Tereza quoted - "This means that if in our terms and conditions it says you cannot bet more than x amount then it means you cannot gamble the x amount either". Excellent line, but unfortunately not evident in your bonus policy.
When checking the GAME HISTORY, what does it have, two columns: BET and WIN, not BET and GAMBLE! ($2.50 bet, $3555 win)
I don't believe I have breached the rules and i believe your interpretation of the bonus rules to say the word "BET" means the word "GAMBLE" is misguided in regards to the bonus policy. I am not someone to offer any advise, a bit of word tweaking in your bonus policy would go a long way in stopping this happening again.
Once again I believe you are interpreting the bonus rules to how you see fit, Im just a gambler at your casino, I do my best to read and interpret the bonus rules, and i need CLEAR AND CONCISE STATEMENTS, not hidden meanings.
im NOT satisfied of your answer and would like my remaining $3600 deposited into my neteller account.

Regards
Robert

posted on August 14, 2015.

Hi Robert,

Thank you for your reply.

As I mentioned in my previous reply, our casino’s terms and condition refer to gambling as the act of placing bets/wagers but the terms are synonyms therefore it’s implied they refer to the same action.

We consider a bet any type of wager whose outcome will have a positive or negative impact on the balance.

The Gamble feature is a bet because it has the same direct output on the balance - whatever you bet/gamble is being taken out of your balance and/or credited to your balance accordingly, if you're winning.

Should you have needed any advice regarding these terms, or any other part of our service, in your own and our interests, you should have contacted us via our Customer Services Department and we would have happily clarified any question you had.

Our accounting department which conducts regular game log checks, established upon verifying your withdrawal request, that you were in breach of our bonus policy by placing bets higher than maximum allowed and as such, our decision on this matter is final.


Best Regards,
Krystal

267Talcums Australia
posted on August 14, 2015.

Krystal
Can you see what you are saying. Quoted from your email above:
"Should you have needed any advice regarding these terms, or any other part of our service, in your own and our interests, you should have contacted us via our Customer Services Department and we would have happily clarified any question you had."
How can I ask for advise or ask you a question when the subject matter is not stated in your rules, how do I know I'm doing anything wrong. Can you please answer that question. You cant say i didn't familiarize myself with the rules, because your rule in Section 6. 6.2 only states;

"If your deposit bonus/offer is 100% or more the maximum bet is 5, or 10% of the deposit bonus/offer amount (the lower of the two amounts apply)".
Does it say anything about the gamble feature and making sure your maximum gamble is <$5. NO

Put yourself in my shoes, these are my following thoughts and actions I had undertaken prior to paying the slots during bonus play:
1. Ok, ill keep my bets to <$5 so I don't break the bonus rules.
2. The Miss Midas slot looks good, ill play that. Id better only bet $2.50 just to keep within the bonus limits. Oh excellent it has a GAMBLE button, Im going to try and hit some quadruples.
3. i quadruple a $55 win from a $2.50 bet to $3555, and also a number of other +$1000 wins. Unreal!
THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO THOUGHT THAT I WAS BREAKING THE RULES BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING IN YOUR RULES THAT SAYS I CANNOT GAMBLE THE WINNINGS ABOVE THE $5.
The explanations you have given to me are only generalizations, your trying to say that the initial outlay is the same as the gambled amount, its simply not good enough and it wont hold up in a court of law!

i have attached a few sections of my game history, you can see that there is a BET column and a WON column. The BET is not same as the GAMBLED WIN. According to these transactions how do you tell the difference between a normal win, which I have not gambled and a win that I have gambled, you cant? So according to your explanation, any win over the $5 IS A BREACH OF THE BONUS RULES. WE MIGHT AS WELL PLAY FUN MONEY because you sure cant win real money.

Why cannot your casino admit there is a serious floor in your bonus policy and your grown up enough to recognize it and fix it.
This is farcical, if i do not receive my $3600, I will have no choice to contact the Lotteries and Gaming Authority of Malta, Fair Trading Australia and any other governmental department within both countries that will listen to my argument!
Regards
Robert

posted on August 17, 2015.

Hi Robert,

Your interpretation of our terms and the course of action where you state that there’s a difference between a Bet to a ‘Gamble’ is incorrect.

Even if you personally interpret the words differently, both the action and the outcome remain the same, your balance will be either affected positi­vel­y/n­ega­tively according the game’s outcome.

Any type of bet placed under any of the games we have available in our Real Money mode is being counted towards the Wagering Requirements of our bonuses. More than that, every Bet/’Gamble’ rewards the users with VIP points with the exact same value. We don’t differentiate between the two by any means.

Please go to the Game History report you mentioned and click on the relevant Session ID where you had winnings to review a full breakdown report of the session as can be seen in the attachment below.

As you may notice, nowhere it’s stated in any of our reports that ‘Gamble’ is a unique action which is separate/external to the play-through of a game. As a matter of fact, ‘Gamble’ is considered to be a Bonus Bet which count towards the Wagering Requirements of active bonuses. If a user decides to gamble the amount of the Payout he had, it’s transferred to the Bonus Bet.

Now that we clarified that ‘Gamble’ is indeed counted as a Bet, once again I would like to state that our actions were fully in line with Clause 15 of our Bonus Policy. The high bets you made took place whilst you redeemed an active bonus on your account:

15. Any bonus which you redeem shall be subject to this Bonus Policy.
(See Screenshot)

Please accept this as our Final answer and the Good Will Gesture of 400 AUD you received as our final payment.


Best Regards,
Krystal

267Talcums Australia
posted on August 17, 2015.

Again an excerpt from your bonus policy:
"If your deposit bonus/offer is 100% or more the maximum bet is 5, or 10% of the deposit bonus/offer amount (the lower of the two amounts apply)".
Be honest, this is the only wording that relates to our argument. if i was a new client using your bonus and had read the rules, the above statement would leave me to believe that i was not allowed to bet over $5. When I play a slot that has a SEPARATE gamble button, I'm not thinking SHOULD I KEEP MY GAMBLE <$5, that's absurd . There is a floor in your wording within your rules and you wont admit to it.
I have taken the issue up with the Lotteries and Gaming Authority of Malta, since your casino wont even recognize my argument.
Stop saying it is a good will gesture to give me $400, $3600 remains unpaid, your playing with my livelihood!
Rob

267Talcums Australia
posted on August 18, 2015.

You seem to be trying to convince yourself that you have a water tight explanation. Your ignoring your own wording within the bonus policy, its very vague. Do you think I would be having this argument with you if your wording was slightly changed to the following;
"If your deposit bonus/offer is 100% or more, the maximum bet/wager or gambled win is 5, or 10% of the deposit bonus/offer amount (the lower of the two amounts apply)".

Lets just see what the gaming authority and Askgamblers thinks of the situation.

posted on August 18, 2015.

Hi Robert,

I'm really sorry you feel this way and can understand that the situation is frustrating for you. It's not the case that we are trying to convince ourselves that we have a water-tight argument. We know that we are acting correctly and in accordance with our bonus policy. The history we asked you to go to in the software clearly shows that the act of gambling is a bet even it is doesn't list the gamble as a bet we don't think it makes any difference.

As you have submitted a complaint to Malta we can no longer comment on your posts here so for us this matter as now closed as far as this complaints procedure goes. We hope that you will respect our position and refrain from continuing to post here until the Malta decision comes through.

Best Regards,
Krystal

AskGamblers
posted on August 19, 2015.

Player submitted a formal complaint in front of casino's licensing authority. This complaint will be closed and marked as unresolved until we receive the final decision from MGA regarding this dispute.