Casino Grand Bay - Non payment

UNRESOLVED
posted on March 22, 2013.

I've spent thousands of dollars at Casino Grand Bay. After redeeming some Loyalty Points, I played for hours and hours on the slots. I finally won something decent and made a withdrawal of $2,361.00. Upon redeeming the Loyalty Points the message states that you may withdrawal any amount won which is above the Loyalty amount credited. The Loyalty amount will be forfeited and the rest may be cashed in. Well, it appears they are NOT adhering to this. Out of $2,361.00 cashed in, they only paid $143.00 and took the balance of it. To me this is FRAUD!

posted on March 25, 2013.

Dear Winegirl,

Upon investigating, it seems that you misunderstood or misinterpreted our Promotional-Bonus Terms and Conditions. Please allow us this opportunity to clarify:

Loyalty points may be redeemed by players for bonus money, regardless of their tier status, as indicated in our Loyalty Programme.

Bonus Money and any non-deposit bonus is regarded as Free Money, and the maximum cash-in amount on Free Money/Free Spins (No Deposit Required) is $/€/£150 (One Hundred and Fifty), which our records show you received. (Please refer to section 14 of our Promotional-Bonus Terms and Conditions for detailed terms and conditions.)

We do not have any term or condition that states that a player may withdraw any amount over the Loyalty Bonus. The message that comes up when you redeem loyalty points only state the following: "You have successfully claimed a loyalty award. Your loyalty points have been reduced by 2500 points."


We hope this resolves your query. Please feel free to contact us if you have any further questions. We will gladly assist.


Yours sincerely,

Casino GrandBay

posted on March 27, 2013.

Your response is unacceptable. The terms and conditions were not spelled out. Regardless, there were funds still on account prior to redeeming the Loyalty Points, as I had made 6 deposits totalling around $1,000 directly prior to.

As I've stated, your casino is fraudulent!

posted on March 29, 2013.

Thank you for responding to our personal email regarding this matter Winegirl. We also prefer to address your query directly and are satisfied with the direct line of communication that has been established, and is now successfully in progress.

Yours sincerely,

Casino GrandBay

posted on March 29, 2013.

The purpose of me filing the complaint via this website is that I do not want it to be private. It is the public's right to be warned off playing at a casino that is fraudulent. Regardless, any "private" message received thus far has not been satisfactory. You've outright refused to pay what is owed and refused to provide the contact data for your legal department, as I wish to file a complaint with the US Attorney General and US Gaming Commission.

posted on April 2, 2013.

Dear Winegirl,


As we’ve explained in reply to your post on the forum, as well as correspondence you received from us, we are not in breach of any of our terms and conditions, and we’ve also pointed out that all players have to acknowledge that they both understand and accept the terms and conditions before they open an account with us.


Our records indicate that you did exactly this on 22 April 2011 when you opened an account with Casino GrandBay.


Since then you have cashed in on 31 August 2012, 6 January 2013, 24 January 2013 and 21 February 2013, totalling a substantial amount. All these cash-ins were paid in full, without any problems or issues from either side.


This complaint of yours however involves your Loyalty Points being converted to Bonus Money, which is also termed Free Money (no deposit required), and the maximum cash-in amount on this is $150. We would like to again refer you to the appropriate links for our terms and conditions relating to this:


Promotional-Bonus Terms and Conditions: www.be­tca­sin­ogr­and­bay.co­m/en/terms-­con­dit­ion­s/p­rom­oti­onal-terms-conditions.htm, Section 14, where it states clearly that the maximum cash-in amount on Free Money/Free Spins (No Deposit Required) is $/€/£150 (One Hundred and Fifty);


Plus the additional link to our Loyalty Programme: http:/­/ww­w.b­etc­asi­nog­ran­dbay.com/en/loyalty.htm where it’s indicated very clearly that you can only redeem Points for Bonus Money. Bonus Money is Free Money and therefore Section 14 applies.


We’ve replied and responded without fail to your correspondence on this matter, and we’ve also supplied you with all the relevant contact details, as per your request. In a further effort to resolve this issue, our appropriate representative will contact you telephonically on 2 April 2013 to discuss your complaint.


In order to be clear, we want to set the record straight regarding your claim that a message pops up when you redeem loyalty points: the message you “qu­ote­d” does not exist as we’ve clearly pointed out in correspondence to you. This is the actual message that comes up: "You have successfully claimed a loyalty award. Your loyalty points have been reduced by 2500 points."


 


We are now taking a strong stance with regards to your allegations of fraud as this is not the case and currently constitutes libel. We still hope that we can settle this matter amicably, but we have to be upfront that we are not going to make an exception in your case.


 


We welcome the public platform because we have nothing to hide. We do not owe you any money, we have not refused any information, in fact, we’ve been very accommodating in the light of your serious and unfounded accusations.


 


The facts are irrefutable and your claims unsubstantiated.


 


Yours sincerely


Casino GrandBay Administration

posted on April 3, 2013.

No where in the Terms and Conditions does it state that Loyalty Points are "free money". The link you provided for the Loyalty does not list it as "free money" either.

You also seem to be leaving out the fact that the same day, I made purchases totalling almost $1,000.

posted on April 3, 2013.

Dear Winegirl,

As we’ve explained in reply to your post on the forum, as well as correspondence you received from us, we are not in breach of any of our terms and conditions, and we’ve also pointed out that all players have to acknowledge that they both understand and accept the terms and conditions before they open an account with us.

Our records indicate that you did exactly this on 22 April 2011 when you opened an account with Casino GrandBay.

Since then you have cashed in on 31 August 2012, 6 January 2013, 24 January 2013 and 21 February 2013, totalling a substantial amount. All these cash-ins were paid in full, without any problems or issues from either side.

This complaint of yours however involves your Loyalty Points being converted to Bonus Money, which is also termed Free Money (no deposit required), and the maximum cash-in amount on this is $150. We would like to again refer you to the appropriate links for our terms and conditions relating to this:

Promotional-Bonus Terms and Conditions: www.be­tca­sin­ogr­and­bay.co­m/e­n/t­erm­s-c­ond­iti­ons­/pr­omo­tio­nal­-te­rms­-co­ndi­tio­ns.htm, Section 14, where it states clearly that the maximum cash-in amount on Free Money/Free Spins (No Deposit Required) is $/€/£150 (One Hundred and Fifty);

Plus the additional link to our Loyalty Programme: http:/­/ww­w.b­etc­asi­nog­ran­dba­y.c­om/­en/­loy­alt­y.htm where it’s indicated very clearly that you can only redeem Points for Bonus Money. Bonus Money is Free Money and therefore Section 14 applies.

We’ve replied and responded without fail to your correspondence on this matter, and we’ve also supplied you with all the relevant contact details, as per your request. In a further effort to resolve this issue, our appropriate representative will contact you telephonically on 2 April 2013 to discuss your complaint.

In order to be clear, we want to set the record straight regarding your claim that a message pops up when you redeem loyalty points: the message you “quoted” does not exist as we’ve clearly pointed out in correspondence to you. This is the actual message that comes up: "You have successfully claimed a loyalty award. Your loyalty points have been reduced by 2500 points."


We are now taking a strong stance with regards to your allegations of fraud as this is not the case and currently constitutes libel. We still hope that we can settle this matter amicably, but we have to be upfront that we are not going to make an exception in your case.


We welcome the public platform because we have nothing to hide. We do not owe you any money, we have not refused any information, in fact, we’ve been very accommodating in the light of your serious and unfounded accusations.


The facts are irrefutable and your claims unsubstantiated.


Yours sincerely

Casino GrandBay Administration

posted on April 4, 2013.

winegirl reviewed Few seconds ago

I've clicked on your links. No where does it state that Loyalty Points, which are earned, are "bonus money".

Regardless, the same day as cashing the loyalty points, I made 5 deposits totalling almost $1,000. You're acting like you gave me free money for nothing!


Also, it's now April 4th and the measly $143.00 that was supposed to be deposited into my bank account, still has not been credited!

posted on April 5, 2013.

Dear Winegirl,

Allow us to provide you with the information on the links we’ve supplied before:

Here is the link again: http:/­/ww­w.b­etc­asi­nog­ran­dba­y.c­om/­en/­loy­alt­y.htm, but below we’ve also copied and pasted the information for your convenience. This is the relevant information on Loyalty Points, except for tables that we cannot copy and paste.

1. The very first sub-heading explains that players earn loyalty points:

Moving up the Ranks

Points are accumulated over a 12 month period and players need to maintain points to remain on their current tiers. Benefits increase according to status and include a host of fabulous bonuses… Have a look to see what you are entitled to.

2. In our benefits table, please check this heading. It’s directly under Moving up the Ranks, below the pictures of playing cards in the Tier Section, and it’s the second heading on the left hand side of the screen, and is blue in colour:

Redeem Points for Bonus Money with an adjacent table.

3. If you scroll further down the page, you’ll find this heading:

Loyalty Points Prizes:

Where you will find a comprehensive table featuring Loyalty Points value versus bonus money or where applicable, merchandise.

4. Below the table you will also clearly see this paragraph to the right of the screen:

Players can redeem loyalty points for bonus money… the more accumulated and the more rewards will be received.

Playback:

250 points = $10

500 points = $25

1000 points = $55

We sympathise that you were under the wrong impression, but as you can see, the terms and conditions are quite clear and therefore irrefutable.

With regards to the $143.00: As you know from all your previous cash-ins, we’ve always, without fail, paid you without any hassles and you’ve never had a problem. You won’t this time either. You should receive your payment any day now.

We hope that this detailed explanation has made the facts clear? We are always more than willing to assist our players and believe that we have done so satisfactorily in this case.

Sincerely,

Casino GrandBay Administration

posted on April 6, 2013.

Your reply makes no sense at all. Nothing in it proves that Loyalty Rewards are deemed as "free" money.

As far as previous payouts are concerned, yes they've been received, but on numerous occasions they were not paid in a timely manner and now it's even longer, as it's been almost 3 weeks since the withdrawal and the pathetic $143.00 is still not in my bank!

I'm done with this back and forth. It's obvious to all by now that you have stolen my winnings and aren't going to pay. The only thing I want from you at his point is the contact details for your legal department, so that I may provide them to the US Attorney General and the US Gaming Commission. Then they will determine the outcome. If you have nothing to hide and you stand by the fact that you're in right, why will you not provide the contact data that I've asked for 6x?

posted on April 9, 2013.

Dear Winegirl,

1. Thank you for acknowledging that we’ve always paid you, and that you’ve always received your payouts.

Our records show that you are a Queen Tier status and made all your previous withdrawals from claiming match bonus offers, the dates being 31 August 2012, 6 January 2013, 24 January 2013 and 21 February 2013.

Therefore you clearly understand these wagering requirements as stipulated in our Terms and Conditions (and we quote): All match bonus offers need to be wagered through 40X by Black Diamond, Ace, King, Queen and Jack Tier players before a player can make any withdrawal. This section appears under General Terms and Conditions for Bonus Promotions and is available on this link:

http:/­/ww­w.b­etc­asi­nog­ran­dba­y.c­om/­en/­ter­ms-­con­dit­ion­s/p­rom­oti­ona­l-t­erm­s-c­ond­iti­ons.htm

2. Our records show that your $143.00 has been processed and paid.

3. Let’s straighten out, once and for all, your claim that Loyalty Rewards are not deemed as “free money”.

Please follow this link: http:/­/ww­w.b­etc­asi­nog­ran­dba­y.c­om/­en/­loy­alt­y.htm where it shows clearly on the easy-find graphic that starts just below the tier pictures of face cards, that points can be redeemed for bonus money. Your tier status is Queen, and you will see a tick under the Queen Tier for the heading “Redeem Points for Bonus Money”.

By now, and with all the evidence we’ve provided, it’s clear that (and we quote):

•Players can redeem loyalty points for bonus money…

You will find the above on the link: http:/­/ww­w.b­etc­asi­nog­ran­dba­y.c­om/­en/­loy­alt­y.htm.

Scroll down the page to the last section. It’s the very first paragraph to the right of your screen immediately underneath the pictures of the Television, the Bahamas Holidays and the Golf Holiday.

It is always understood that bonus money is also referred to as FREE MONEY, as is proven in the Promotional Terms and Conditions that you will find on this link: http:/­/ww­w.b­etc­asi­nog­ran­dba­y.c­om/­en/­ter­ms-­con­dit­ion­s/p­rom­oti­ona­l-t­erm­s-c­ond­iti­ons.htm

Scroll down to section 14 that we’ve copied and pasted here:

14. PAYOUT PROCEDURE AT GRANDPRIVE.COM CASINOS, where it states clearly:

Please note: The maximum cash-in amount on Free Money/Free Spins (No Deposit Required) is $/€/£150 (One Hundred and Fifty).

4. We’d also like to once again remind you of your acceptance and understanding of our terms and conditions when you opened your account.

On this link: http:/­/ww­w.b­etc­asi­nog­ran­dba­y.c­om/­en/­ter­ms-­con­dit­ion­s.htm you will find this opening paragraph:

By playing at any GrandPrive.com Casino it is taken that you agree to the General Terms and Conditions, as well as the Terms and Conditions that govern any and all promotions at any GrandPrive.com Casino

IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please carefully read the following legally binding Terms and Conditions between GrandPrive.com and you, The Player. Please feel free to print out these conditions and store them in a safe place for future referrals.

Herewith relevant portions of the terms and conditions that refer specifically to this matter, with links provided:

The Player warrants and certifies the Player's understanding and acceptance of the rules, terms and conditions detailed below. http:/­/ww­w.b­etc­asi­nog­ran­dba­y.c­om/­en/­ter­ms-­con­dit­ion­s/g­ene­ral­-te­rms­-co­ndi­tio­ns.htm

And because you accepted our terms and conditions, the following conditions obviously apply:

•The following terms and conditions apply to all bonus-promotions and offers. In addition to these key terms, please ensure that you familiarize yourself with the specific conditions applicable to any promotion in which you are invited to participate. http:/­/ww­w.b­etc­asi­nog­ran­dba­y.c­om/­en/­ter­ms-­con­dit­ion­s/p­rom­oti­ona­l-t­erm­s-c­ond­iti­ons.htm

•The standard casino terms and conditions shall apply to any and all actions between GrandPrive.com Casinos and the Player, and must be read with all relevant promotional terms and conditions applicable to each offer / promotion. http:/­/ww­w.b­etc­asi­nog­ran­dba­y.c­om/­en/­ter­ms-­con­dit­ion­s/p­rom­oti­ona­l-t­erm­s-c­ond­iti­ons.htm

5. We’ve also corresponded with you via personal email when we became aware that were disgruntled:

Your initial complaint that we received read as follows, and we quote (sic): Why was $2,211.00 deducted from my withdrawal???? The terms and conditions of the Loyalty Points state that I may withdrawal any amount over the Loyalty Bonus, and only the Loyalty Bonus is forfeited.

On Wednesday, 27 March, our Customer Liaison Officer, Adrienne sent you an email explaining that you misunderstood the terms and conditions with regards to Loyalty Points. She also provided you with all the relevant links so that you could check for yourself.

You also claimed that this “message” appeared (although you earlier claimed that you found this in the terms and conditions. Both statements are false.) We quote your comment: Upon redeeming the Loyalty Points the message states that you may withdrawal any amount won which is above the Loyalty amount credited. The Loyalty amount will be forfeited and the rest may be cashed in.

Adrienne pointed out that we do not have any such message, and that the message that actually appears is the following:

"You have successfully claimed a loyalty award. Your loyalty points have been reduced by 2500 points."

This was your reply to that mail: Sorry, not acceptable! You've stolen my winnings and that's FRAUD! As previously requested, please provide the contact details for your legal department so that I may pass on to the US Gaming Commissions and US Attorney General.

On 28 March, Adrienne again wrote to you, again provided you with the links, and again explained that you’ve misunderstood because it was quite clear from your very first complaint that you in fact did not understand the terms and conditions with regards to loyalty points at all.

She also invited you to send a formal complaint via email and provided you with the relevant telephone number as well as an email address, as per our standard procedure when we receive complaints or queries.

On 28 March, this was your reply to that email (sic): Nothing you say is going to deter me. You are fraudulent and I'm reporting you. As requested for the third time now, please provide the contact details for your legal department, so that I may provide the to the proper authorities.

On 1 April, over the Easter Weekend you sent this message to Adrienne: Ignoring me will not make the problem go away. You need to respond!!

Adrienne replied on 2 April that she was not in the office over Easter, and therefore was not able to respond at that time, but that we were attending to your complaint.

We also responded publically to your post on AskGamblers, and referred you to the private correspondence so that the matter could be dealt with that way.

You then posted the following on AskGamblers: The purpose of me filing the complaint via this website is that I do not want it to be private. It is the public's right to be warned off playing at a casino that is fraudulent. Regardless, any "private" message received thus far has not been satisfactory. You've outright refused to pay what is owed and refused to provide the contact data for your legal department, as I wish to file a complaint with the US Attorney General and US Gaming Commission.

Acting on your wish that you were not interested in private correspondence, Adrienne then did not reply to you, and our follow up was posted on AskGamblers:

Dear Winegirl,

As we’ve explained in reply to your post on the forum, as well as correspondence you received from us, we are not in breach of any of our terms and conditions, and we’ve also pointed out that all players have to acknowledge that they both understand and accept the terms and conditions before they open an account with us.

Our records indicate that you did exactly this on 22 April 2011 when you opened an account with Casino GrandBay.

Since then you have cashed in on 31 August 2012, 6 January 2013, 24 January 2013 and 21 February 2013, totalling a substantial amount. All these cash-ins were paid in full, without any problems or issues from either side.

This complaint of yours however involves your Loyalty Points being converted to Bonus Money, which is also termed Free Money (no deposit required), and the maximum cash-in amount on this is $150. We would like to again refer you to the appropriate links for our terms and conditions relating to this:

Promotional-Bonus Terms and Conditions: www.be­tca­sin­ogr­and­bay.co­m/e­n/t­erm­s-c­ond­iti­ons­/pr­omo­tio­nal­-te­rms­-co­ndi­tio­ns.htm, Section 14, where it states clearly that the maximum cash-in amount on Free Money/Free Spins (No Deposit Required) is $/€/£150 (One Hundred and Fifty);

Plus the additional link to our Loyalty Programme: http:/­/ww­w.b­etc­asi­nog­ran­dba­y.c­om/­en/­loy­alt­y.htm where it’s indicated very clearly that you can only redeem Points for Bonus Money. Bonus Money is Free Money and therefore Section 14 applies.

We’ve replied and responded without fail to your correspondence on this matter, and we’ve also supplied you with all the relevant contact details, as per your request. In a further effort to resolve this issue, our appropriate representative will contact you telephonically on 2 April 2013 to discuss your complaint.

In order to be clear, we want to set the record straight regarding your claim that a message pops up when you redeem loyalty points: the message you “quoted” does not exist as we’ve clearly pointed out in correspondence to you. This is the actual message that comes up: "You have successfully claimed a loyalty award. Your loyalty points have been reduced by 2500 points."

We are now taking a strong stance with regards to your allegations of fraud as this is not the case and currently constitutes libel. We still hope that we can settle this matter amicably, but we have to be upfront that we are not going to make an exception in your case.

We welcome the public platform because we have nothing to hide. We do not owe you any money, we have not refused any information, in fact, we’ve been very accommodating in the light of your serious and unfounded accusations.

The facts are irrefutable and your claims unsubstantiated.

Yours sincerely

Casino GrandBay Administration

On April 5th (a Friday) you then sent this email to Adrienne (sic): Not only do you not reply, but you haven't even paid the $143.00!!!! And you say your not fraudulent?

To which Adrienne responded on April 8th (Monday): Tanya,

I'm sorry if we misunderstood each other, but you indicated in your post on AskGamblers that you were not interested in private correspondence. Because of that, I did not write to you.

I believe that you've been informed that you will receive your $143 any day now.

Please let me know if you require anything else from my side.

Sincerely,

Adrienne

As mentioned before, we now know that your $143.00 has been paid to you.

Judging from the repetitive nature of your statements and a stubborn unwillingness to accept the facts, you leave us very few alternatives to assuage this situation. You’ve repeatedly and unnecessarily blocked or refuted all attempts to see reason, and you’ve refused to accept proof and information provided.


We believe that it is clear to anybody who’s either followed this string of communication, or just this post, that your mistaken and ill-advised allegations and your false statements have been dealt with sufficiently.

We have provided you countless times with relevant contact information, and have explained that all complaints must be received in writing and via the proper channels, as per the standard way we operate. We invite you to put your complaint in writing to [email protected]

We have gone above and beyond what is deemed necessary to accommodate your unsubstantiated claims, and every time we provide proof that refutes your accusations, you either ignore the facts or come up with a new angle or claim.

On the link http:/­/ww­w.b­etc­asi­nog­ran­dba­y.c­om/­en/­ter­ms-­con­dit­ion­s/g­ene­ral­-te­rms­-co­ndi­tio­ns.htm under the heading Recovery of funds: we refer you to number 9:

9. Casino Grand Bay and the Player shall not commit, or purport to commit, the other to honor any obligation other than is specifically provided for by these Rules.

Above mentioned point (9), which you’ve agreed to, now takes effect.

It is time you acknowledge that you misunderstood or didn’t familiarize yourself properly with the terms and conditions, and that your claims are without basis. From our side, we now consider the matter closed and will not entertain these unwarranted allegations any further.

You may proceed as you see fit, but we have provided all the necessary evidence and is confident of no error or fault.

Yours sincerely,

Casino Grand Bay Administration

posted on April 11, 2013.

All you seem to do is talk in circles. Your terms and conditions are NOT clear regarding Loyalty Points and I'm actually wondering why people even bother to strive to get them if they are not actually worth anything. Regardless, your still not recognizing the fact that I made almost $1,000 in purchases the same day.

You have not provided the contact data that I requested. So, at this point, I will just give the applicable authorities any information that I have and they can take if from there.

Also, in my further investigation online of your casino, it appears that other sites, such as Casino Scam Report, have already blacklisted your casino for such practices as I've described.

posted on April 13, 2013.

Dear Winegirl,

We have explained everything in this thread several times. We feel this issue is now resolved and closed.

Best regards,

Casino Grand Bay Administration

posted on April 13, 2013.

This is my last response. Your so called explanations, have not actually "explained" anything. All you've done is talk in circles and provide links that don't actually prove what your stating. You keep leaving out the fact that in the midst of all this, I did deposit almost $1,000 and you have not provided the information for your legal department as requested.

I will never again play at your casino, I will inform others not to as well, and I will be reporting this incident to the applicable authorities.