Casino Classic Weird Incident

RESOLVED
posted on June 27, 2010.

I'm actually not sure what *exactly* I'm complaining about. My technical knowledge is superior to most Nepalese farmers and some Tibetan monks.


I guess there is a TINY chance I'm complaining about $3,230,000 having been 'stolen'? But really I guess I'm making a complaint as - despite being promised emphatically I would receive a response from Risk Management - to date, no one has made the slightest effort to contact me in regards to this incident and 16 days after sending an email I believe should receive a close-to-instant response.... I have received no reply from Risk Management to my reporting of this incident and [what I believe] are very valid queries in dire need of serious attention.


Prologue: I estimate I have logged about 1500-2000 hours of game time at Microgaming online casinos [thousands more at Prima poker rooms, but not sure that's relevant to the issue at hand].


Incident: A couple weeks ago I was playing Mega Moolah Isis Progressive on Max Coin / Lines at Casino Classic [CasinoRewards]. As anyone who plays the MGV Progressive would already be aware, the Jackpot spins occur [ostensibly] randomly. And they are not common. I mean, I burned through over $1000 at $6.25 on Mega Moolah without seeing a single one.


The Progressive Jackpot wheel is obviously Weighted [I believe any Weighted Slot or game is unethical due to being misrepresentation but that's a separate issue] but it looks like this:



I think it spins for roughly 5-10 seconds. So the Wheel popped up, and I pressed Spin and it was spinning. At which point, something I'd never seen in 7,000,000 seconds whilst playing on Microgaming casinos occurred during that 5-10 seconds where I was spinning for $3.3million:



The game had just been killed and I was in the lobby looking at that error message. I was not disconnected from Casino Classic or any of the dozen applications connected to the Internet. When I reload my game, I see this:



I've seen that particular Jackpot 'win' on all 7 of my Mega Moolah spins lifetime. This was the only time I was concerned to see I'd 'won' ~$10. I kept playing for a little bit but then decided I was too uncomfortable with what had happened to continue so I jumped on Live Chat. If I was concerned before, you can imagine how I felt after chatting to CS: What this chat doesn't show is the 40min or so duration of it. There were very long pauses before I was given answers.



Last week, annoyed at not having received any response, I jumped on Live Chat to inquire what exactly was going on:





I'm not very technical, but I know that anything that can be coded can be coded to 'perform' in certain ways. I'm not an actuary, but I know that 1,000,000:1 coincidences are rare. I'm not a licensing expert but I know that the Gaming Commission he claimed would "not allow it [to happen]" is the KGC who 'allowed' Absolute / UltimateBet owners to code SuperUser accounts into their software and then steal from players for six years. I'm not a philosopher, but I know that allowing or disallowing something you are unaware of is not exactly possible. I'm not a fancy lawyer, but I know that referring to PlayCheck as the "be all and end all" and the "last legal word" is either false [if the matter could be referred to a judiciary] or an insolent joke [if the matter can not be referred to a judiciary]. I'm not a coder, but I know that secret error codes do not exist for exactly the same error [assuming the coders are not lovers of redundancy].



It means the exact same as error 0- general error. - Nathan (CR)



I'm not an investigator, but I know that when simple questions are asked and contradicting responses are given, that usually suggests there is more to the story. I'm not a Security Analyst, but I know that when a player complains about something like this, they deserve an official statement in response to allay their concerns. I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is. And I know that if CS say an Error Message doesn't exist after 20 minutes of internal discussion, even if they're [obviously] wrong, it's a god damn rare error message. So this spookily rare Error Message - which I haven't seen in 7,000,000 seconds - occurs in the 5-10 seconds whilst the Wheel is spinning for $3,300,000. And Risk Management has never responded to my report of the incident. Something makes me really comfortable about ALL of this.

posted on June 28, 2010.

Thanks for this. I will speak with our tech guys and see what I can find.. If this is a technical error, this issue has nothing to do with Risk Management as far as I can see, however I will also speak with them just in case. In the event that it takes me more time that you’ve allowed (3 days), I will let you know.


Cheers


Kindest Regards

Renée

posted on June 28, 2010.

Thanks again for bringing this issue to my attention.


Firstly I’d like to apologise for the misinformation the player was given by Sandra regarding the error message he received. This error message 10 indeed exists as Nathan pointed out and we do see it often. I have sent this off to the support manager so that the agent can be included on further training to ensure this doesn’t happen again.


Now, regarding error message 10, it is similar to error message 0. Here is the description (which is available to all support staff):


Error Description: Error 10: We have a Casino error, please try again later.

Cause: Could not encode an outgoing packet

Action: Close Game


One thing that I would like you to convey to the player is that the game results are random and are audited by eCogra to ensure that the results are legitimate and not altered in any way or form.


If there is any kind of communication issue between the player’s casino client and the casino DB (i.e. an error), which is what happened in this case, the results of the bet will then be applied to the casino client the next time the player loads the game, so if the player had won the jackpot, that would have been displayed when the game was restarted. Since the player had won $10, that is what was displayed when the player restarted the game.


I have had our tech guys go through the playcheck as this is where the bet data is stored on the database and they have confirmed that there was not a progressive win, however since the screen shots do not show balance information on the $10 win screen, and the player won $10 a few times, they were unable to distinguish the exact bet that won him the $10 in the screenshot. They have told me that they can confirm the results with MicroGaming, however they will need the transaction and session numbers of the game and date in question from the player.


On another note, if the player had won the jackpot, the jackpot amount on the ticker would have been reduced to the initial value of the jackpot. We would have been notified by MicroGaming immediately and all groups would know about it, not just us. The progressives are an accumulation of fees paid by all MGS operators, which are paid per dollar wagered. It is not an amount that we as an operator pay completely. This is monitored by MicroGaming, so it would be impossible for us to keep the winnings – I’m sure the other operators would have something to say about us keeping their money.


If there are any further questions, or the player would like to submit the transaction and session numbers of the game and date in question, I would be happy to pass it onto the tech guys to lodge a review with MicroGaming, however taking all of the evidence into consideration, I believe we will only receive the same information from MicroGaming.


Cheers


Kindest Regards

Renée

posted on June 28, 2010.

Hi Renee,



Thanks for the lightning fast response. CR needs a dozen clones of you :) - for what it's worth, I thought Nathan was aiight and it was really the lack of response from Risk Management that I think has been inappropriate.



Also, I don't like being referred to eCOGRA as if I was a dummy and was somehow unaware they are something of a toothless facilitator. Any 'regulatory' body that rules on disputes purely on casino's T&C is instantly redundant - as every casino Terms include "god clauses". When I sent a polite email to eCOGRA highlighting this obvious redundancy, and wondering if perhaps they cared to look at some of the Terms they supported or even if they cared to explain their justification for them - I was, of course, insulted with silence.



As the Progressive is networked, is it all hosted on the Microgaming server? Are you able to go into a bit more detail regarding that?



The spin in question has the casino clock time stamped on it - top right corner:
http:/­/ww­w.a­skg­amb­ler­s.c­om/­htm­l/c­omp­lai­nts­/ca­sin­o-c­las­sic­/ca­sin­ocl­ass­icc­asi­noe­rro.jpg



I don't doubt we will receive a similar response from MG, but if you don't mind humouring me, I would be in your debt.



And finally, you mentioned that the game results are random - but there are many kinds of random. I mean, obviously I am aware the Jackpot Wheel is Weighted...but I think it's a stretch to assume that 100% of players playing the game are aware of that fact. And as the Jackpot Wheel is so clearly Weighted, is it safe to assume that all or some of the MGV Slots are Weighted?



If you are unable to broach this subject for some reason, would you be able to outline the requirements for secrecy in this regard?



Thanks again for responding so quickly!



Jonny

posted on July 7, 2010.

Just a quick update.


Still waiting on a response from MGS.


Regarding the player’s question here: As the Progressive is networked, is it all hosted on the Microgaming server? Are you able to go into a bit more detail regarding that?


All Progressive jackpot games are interconnected through a wide area network. Every bet made at every MGS casino at one of the progressives counts towards it’s jackpot, which often results in a very large jackpot. Due to the way all MGS Casino contribute to the progressives, each casino is constantly being updated by the Progressive servers on jackpot amounts and winnings, which also makes it very difficult for winnings to be altered in any way.


Weighted is a bit of a subjective term – obviously to meet the payout percentages, there is math behind everything and the results of the game are being managed to a degree. eCOGRA audits this all to ensure the percentages are accurate, and if anything had been manipulated here, it would take an impossible effort to co-ordinate across all systems to ensure it was all kept accurate.


Thanks.


Kindest Regards,


Renée

Affiliate Coordinator

posted on July 8, 2010.

Thanks Renée.


I'll admit I don't really understand what 'weighted' really means [when it's used to manage an RTP %], but I'd sure like to learn a lot more - which seems harder than it should be at times [although I might just be getting old or more dumbed of course].


You've already illuminated it for me far more than most appear willing to do, and I don't want to push my luck, but I shall risk it anyway because I am fuelled with courage from drink. My main concern with 'weighted' is whether or not my understanding it more completely would affect my decisions to play certain Slots at certain times - I suspect such an understanding just might, which makes me marginally nervous due to my large bet sizing and volume.


Basically...and please feel free to ridicule me if I have the concept hilariously wrong....in a hypothetical where an incredibly high volume player had won a very large amount on a specific Slot at a small MGV casino - so much so that the single player's wagering dwarfed all other wagers in comparison [at that casino] - could the Weighted Slot in question [which had paid out so much] then be expected to correct the disparity? Over say a month, or whatever the period of time is for which the Slots are 'managed' to produce the expected RTP %'s?


Again, this is purely personal interest stuff, and if you cannot comment further on it, that's aiight....it's really quite unrelated to the Complaint posted above to which you're kindly responding....of course.


cheers

Jonny

posted on July 8, 2010.

The question the player poses is actually not something that I would know. This information is not available to me and to be honest, even though I have a tech background, I don’t really understand the question – likely because that information is not something that is available to me. I would suspect the player’s best avenue for finding out that information is to contact MicroGaming directly since they create/design the games.



I’ll get back to you once I have info from MGS.



Cheers



Kindest Regards



Renée

Affiliate Coordinator

posted on July 12, 2010.

Hi,


Attached is an audit of the player’s game play and confirms that he won the Mini Jackpot and not the ‘Mega Jackpot’. This information was pulled by MGS directly from the DB.


Let me know if you have any questions.


Kindest Regards


Renée

Affiliate Coordinator


Changed database context to 'casinoarch'.

userid ..................... 9192740

player name ................ J*** *******
transnumber ................ 4431

date game finished ......... Jun 10 2010 8:46PM

coins bet per pay line ..... 20

coin size (cents) .......... 5

number of active paylines .. 25

slot wager (credits) ....... 25.00

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

reel symbols

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

nine lotus carving royal septre knoptic vase ten

sarcophagus king king queen nine

ten ace queen king knoptic vase

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

total reel win .................. 0.00 credits (0 coins x 0.05)

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

gamble results

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

no gamble games played

progressive results

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------
wheel stopped on orange segment

player won mini jackpot

progressive was won at a value of 16.69 credits

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

win summary (all slot wins + all bonus wins(if any))

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

total payout ........................... 16.69 credits [333 coins]

= (slots payout incl bonus game) + (total gamble payout) - (total gamble wager)

= (16.69 credits + 0.00 credits - 0.00 credits)


Changed database context to 'casinoarch'.

userid ..................... 9192740

player name ................ J*** *******
transnumber ................ 4451

date game finished ......... Jun 10 2010 8:48PM

coins bet per pay line ..... 20

coin size (cents) .......... 5

number of active paylines .. 25

slot wager (credits) ....... 25.00

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

reel symbols

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

jack sarcophagus scatterhawk sarcophagus jack

ten king nine jack queen

nine jack ten queen sarcophagus

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

total reel win .................. 0.00 credits (0 coins x 0.05)

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

gamble results

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

no gamble games played

progressive results

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------
wheel stopped on orange segment

player won mini jackpot

progressive was won at a value of 10.04 credits

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

win summary (all slot wins + all bonus wins(if any))

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

total payout ........................... 10.04 credits [200 coins]

= (slots payout incl bonus game) + (total gamble payout) - (total gamble wager)

= (10.04 credits + 0.00 credits - 0.00 credits)


Changed database context to 'casinoarch'.

userid ..................... 9192740

player name ................ J*** *******
transnumber ................ 4482

date game finished ......... Jun 10 2010 8:51PM

coins bet per pay line ..... 20

coin size (cents) .......... 5

number of active paylines .. 25

slot wager (credits) ....... 25.00

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

reel symbols

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

nine ten sarcophagus jack king

queen jack jack eye of horus ace

lotus carving sarcophagus queen nine sarcophagus

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

total reel win .................. 0.00 credits (0 coins x 0.05)

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

gamble results

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

no gamble games played

progressive results

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------
wheel stopped on orange segment

player won mini jackpot

progressive was won at a value of 10.00 credits

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

win summary (all slot wins + all bonus wins(if any))

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-------

total payout ........................... 10.00 credits [200 coins]

= (slots payout incl bonus game) + (total gamble payout) - (total gamble wager)

= (10.00 credits + 0.00 credits - 0.00 credits)


Changed database context to 'casinoarch'.

userid ..................... 9192740

player name ................ J*** *******
transnumber ................ 4509

date game finished ......... Jun 10 2010 8:55PM

coins bet per pay line ..... 20

coin size (cents) .......... 5

number of active paylines .. 25

slot wager (credits) ....... 25.00

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-----

reel symbols

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-----

jack ace scatterhawk king royal septre

ten knoptic vase nine wild ten

lotus carving ten ten ace jack

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-----

total reel win .................. 2.00 credits (40 coins x 0.05)

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-----

gamble results

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-----

no gamble games played

progressive results

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-----
wheel stopped on yellow segment

player won minor jackpot


progressive was won at a value of 100.02 credits

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-----

win summary (all slot wins + all bonus wins(if any))

------­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­---­-----

total payout ........................... 102.02 credits [2040 coins]

= (slots payout incl bonus game) + (total gamble payout) - (total gamble wager)

= (102.02 credits + 0.00 credits - 0.00 credits)