FashionTV Casino - Giving me the runaround for €19,700 payment!

UNRESOLVED
posted on September 29, 2015.

I am having a payout/account issue with betftv (fashiontv casino). I have won 19700€ there, which they so far haven't been paying out and they haven't been sorting my account out.

Right now my last couple of emails (which they told me to send on live chat) went unanswered, and the live support never has anyone available with any real authority.

They were mentioning some reasons for the delays.
However, all were sorted out during the talks we had and I was acknowledged in my last chat with them I'd get paid as soon as they get to it and verify what I've sent.

[Quick review of what we had agreed on during the last useful conversation - welcome promotion had a ~24000€ rollover requirement. I played 29587.5€, so much, much more.
In one of the talks I was mentioned how the rollover should have been ~48000€. I replied that I had half a dozen chats where the figure mentioned is 24000, a screenshot of their terms where that is listed, and a conversation I had before I'd even started playing where I asked that explicitly, and was told 24000 is the rollover for a 400€ deposit and a 400€ bonus.
And, in the last talk they mentioned a 6.25€ betsize limit while a promo is active. They added that a few days after I'd completed everything. Luckily, I have the original terms saved. There was no such term in place then.]


So, we've reached a point where I've sent (emailed and uploaded on their chat) them the screenshots of all that, and where they acknowledged that it'll all be sorted out soon and apologized for the delays in the situation.

Effectively, nothing is left to cause any delays.
But, nothing has happened since.

Right now I cannot reach neither Nic Johnson, who is supposed to be one of the supervisors there, nor is there ever anyone from the finance team available to sort out my account, process the funds and pay me the first part (they'd do 4 weekly installments or so) of my winnings.



A short copypaste of the last chat -

Tyler 09:39:25 pm

yes just add your concern that you have saw the wagering requirement of 30 x bonus on website and then you have deposited a claim the bonus and what you got is 60 x attach the image file mentioning you want to reduce your wagering and you want a compensation for it

[EDITED] 09:39:54 pm

what should I put as the subject?
and which image would you like attached?

Tyler 09:41:23 pm

both the images first put that when i started playing it was no bet condition showing now after weekend it is there and then write what you find correct for you like you want to play with 30x wagering rest should be reduced and mention your concern that why should i rollover 48000 when i have to wager only 24000 make it and tell me once you sent it

Tyler 09:55:00 pm

oky then leave everything to me now i will check and forward the mail too from my side don't worry you can relax you will get what you want

[EDITED] 09:55:51 pm

That would be excellent. All I want is to have this positively and fairly resolved.

Tyler 09:59:54 pm

yes i will try to make over everything

[EDITED] 10:00:03 pm

Thank you, Tyler
Or rather, Nic
Your help is most appreciated.


Tyler 10:00:52 pm

welcome tyler is agent and he transferred the chat to me so you can ask anytime to anyone to make your chat forward to me

AskGamblers
posted on October 3, 2015.

Dear @Eagle,
Any update considering your complaint? Thank you.

posted on October 3, 2015.

I have had several long chats, which all went in circles. I will gladly post everything here as it unfolds if you'd like.

posted on October 3, 2015.

Let me post two updates here.

First off, I have received several mentions on live chat how management has checked out my account, that everything is clear and that I'll be free to withdraw or do as I please soon. Deadlines mentioned were by October 1., then "in the evening", then "by tomorrow", then "as soon as the tech/accounts team sorts it out", etc.


A second update has happened today - I have received an email from them (first one I got, aside from automatic responses).

They have now changed their claim into something else altogether. That I have played enough, but not enough, at the same time.

Quick summary -
They now made a claim that I have committed irregular gameplay, defining what they mean here:

" Regardless of the player’s provided screenshots, as per the terms and condition that the customer has accepted upon registration ‘Should the Casino deem that irregular game play has occurred with or without the use of bonus funds, the Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings and bonuses’.

After carefully examining the user’s gaming session our Fraud department has found such irregular game play, more precisely suspicious amount of wager compared to the bonus followed by an immediate withdrawal request submitted by the player."

I have replied with
1. The casino sets those requirements themselves. They cannot rightfully void anything if the player has completed what the casino has set.
It would make no sense for them not to respect the amounts they picked themselves. Noone could ever withdraw.

2. In my particular case, I have played 29587.5€. The requirement was 23790€.
In other words, I have played way, way, way over the required amount anyway. There was no "immediate withdrawal request" with regards to the rollover.

And, I haven't even managed to place said request anyway.




A more complete version of the correspondence, if anyone wants to read the details, follows below.

The gist of their email -

... event that the casino believes a user is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus using different systems or strategies including but not limited to playing in a way designed solely to exploit any given bonus, then the Casino may, at its sole discretion, block, deny, suspend, withhold or withdraw any potential winning from any bonus, in such manner we deem fit and/or withhold the pay out of the proceeds of such abuse to the player in question. Where Bet FTV shall act in good faith to determine if there was actual or attempted abuse.

Regardless of the player’s provided screenshots, as per the terms and condition that the customer has accepted upon registration ‘Should the Casino deem that irregular game play has occurred with or without the use of bonus funds, the Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings and bonuses’.

After carefully examining the user’s gaming session our Fraud department has found such irregular game play, more precisely suspicious amount of wager compared to the bonus followed by an immediate withdrawal request submitted by the player.
We would like to note that in the event of any dispute, the decision of the Casino Management will be considered full and final. Participation of any player in our Welcome Package is subject to acceptance of the casino's full Terms & Conditions.
In conclusion, the said winnings are considered void by Bet FTV. You are invited to claim your initial deposit by requesting a withdrawal and after submitting the necessary documents for verification.


My reply, quoting a part of their email first -

" Bet FTV shall act in good faith to determine if there was actual or attempted abuse."
" our Fraud department has found such irregular game play, more precisely suspicious amount of wager compared to the bonus followed by an immediate withdrawal request submitted by the player."

This seems like a generic email which cannot apply to my case and seems to have been sent by someone not aware of the facts surrouding it. Possibly deliberately so.
Let me point out the most important two of those facts.

1. Fact is, casino is the one who sets their own wagering requirements for any promos they offer.
So a casino can never refuse paying out their rightful winners based on the fact that a person "has not wagered enough", provided that the person has completed their wagering requirements. That is precisely what said requirement is for.
The reasoning for that is simple. The casino itself determined it, and therefore they must uphold it.
And the fact is, if the casino wanted everyone to play a larger amount first, the onus was on them to say so and put it in writing. That is the only way "good faith" can reasonably be seen there. Not by saying "wager x amount" and later saying "just kidding, x isn't enough".
It is a written, formal agreement.


2. Regardless of that, the whole story is inapplicable in my particular case anyway.
My wagering requirement was 23790€ ((400+393) times 30).
Had I played 23800, or 24000, or 24500, then MAYBE you might have a case (you would not really, but let's take that for the sake of discussion).

But I love to play. And I have continued playing on and on, way beyond that, since I felt I was on a hot streak; and I have played precisely 29587.5€ - an amount that is much, much, much larger than any requirements I had. Over 5500€ larger!

The claim that I have made a "suspicious amount of wager compared to the bonus followed by an immediate withdrawal request", as you put it, is therefore clearly false in my case whichever way anyone looks at it. Again, reasonable conclusions and "good faith" are more than obvious.

AskGamblers
posted on December 11, 2015.

This case has been reopened upon casino’s request and we would like to give it one more chance for a successful resolution.
We have been informed by the casino management that licence authority presented their decision upon this particular case.

posted on December 11, 2015.

We would like to update the Askgamblers.com community and the player over the resolution of the case.

After an investigation by the Curacao Gaming Commission followed by the player's request, we received the following letter in response. As you will see, the case has been escalated to the highest authority. Following a thorough investigation, they have found that the player was in breach of our terms and conditions as you will find in the attached, and therefore uphold our decision.

We have on their request refunded your original deposit and an additional 400 euro by way of a goodwill gesture. We now consider this case closed and invite you to withdraw your funds and terminate your account.

Regards,
FashionTV Casino

posted on December 11, 2015.

Dear all,

I would like to make a few comments on the contents of those letter, as all the relevant statements in them are untrue.

1) The letter says how I was once told that the rollover is 30x, and on the next chat I was told that it is 60x.
That is not true. An accurate description would be this -
- I was told before even playing that it is 30x;
- the website listed 30x in the promotional terms
- on 5 subsequent chats I was again told it is 30x
- I was told a "deep check" was made and that the rollover is 30x
- on one chat I was told "hey it is 60x"; surprised, I told them about those instances from before. And during the very same conversation that same supervisor has then offered an apology, told me simply not to worry, just to send them that screenshot of the chat (and the Terms!) and that I would get my money.

And that same supervisor (which they mention as a relevant figure) has done the same twice more, even apologizing that they still haven't had this resolved.

We had no chats of substance after that, except a couple more promises of payment.


2) The letters says that "I was informed by a popup that the rollover is 60x". That is also not true, the message you'd get from a popup is a generic "make sure the rollover is completed in case it isn't", and it does not even tell you whether it is or it isn't. Nothing could've been concluded from that popup.

3) The intent of the company, when the promotional terms explicitly list the rollover and 5 different chats confirm it (even after "deep and thorough checks", seems pretty clear.
Even more clear when the senior management promises that they'd pay when presented with the story.

4) They try to slip in how "a chat with support cannot overrule terms and conditions".
However, their Terms and Conditiions for the welcome promotion (which is what this is about) explicitly state that the rollover is 30x (d+b).
And the general terms state that their promo rollover is 60x(d+b) unless otherwise specified.

So this particular promo obviously WAS otherwise specified.
Chat was merely a confirmation of it.
And no term was broken by me.

5) They list a few sentences which do not quite make any sense, however, the ending is very, very interesting.

Upon pointing all of the above to Stuart Goldstein, the official who was handling the case, I was greeted with the same sentence twice more -
"when there is a dispute that we will reverse the amount involved to include any expense on the players account and return the original amount back to their account."

Read that carefully; I am pretty sure this is quoted out of context, but if not, according to his interpretation, whenever there's a dispute the player - never gets his winnings.



What is the point of such a regulatory body then and how is the player protected? Is that a license to, well, steal? Shouldn't in case of a dispute a fair resolution be found isntead?!



In any case, everyone can read the FACTS I posted above and draw their own conclusions.

I will take the next logical step. I do not think the matter was handled in a fair way in the slightest. I have found a legal representative and, should they not pay, I will take them to court and post about how that goes.

Also, not all regulatory bodies are the same, so be sure to take notice which one this was - it was this one, at http:/­/ww­w.g­ami­ng-­cur­aca­o.com/.
It might prove helpful.

Maybe I'm completely in the wrong, of course. Maybe I'm missing something, it happens to everyone.
But I post the facts, do my best to post all of them, and anyone can draw their own conclusions.


I do not know how reliable Curacao courts are, nor how fair they are, but as you can by now imagine from my previous actions and approach, I will do my best to find out.

posted on December 11, 2015.

Just to reiterate once more - the regulatory body in question has moved on from all those points. I've only replied because FashionTV listed them here.
They quickly moved on from the claims that I broke any T&C (naturally, I have the screenshots of the webpage Terms which offer me 30x and not just the chats!, and those murky stories of "employer mistake" just tried to obfuscate the issue);
and their actual final note was, again, that last and very important sentence.

"This is based on the Articles of the Master License set forth by the Ministry. Under which it is stated “that when there is a dispute that we will reverse the amount involved to include any expense on the players account and return the original amount back to their account.”"


According to their interpretation, this would mean that they have to tell the casino to keep my winnings in case of a dispute. Instead of coming to a fair ruling.
And that is the crux of the issue at this point.

posted on December 15, 2015.

The regulators mentioned they needed more chat logs.

They are now examining further chat logs that I have provided.

And we had more discussions about the case. So this is still developing, and we're still in the phase where it's the regulator, the casino and me being involved.

AskGamblers
posted on December 23, 2015.

Based on the complaint thread this complaint is still in progress, we will close it as unresolved until we get a new resolution from licence authority of FashionTV Casino.

AskGamblers
posted on January 20, 2016.

This case has been reopened upon player’s request there are new information regarding this case.

posted on January 20, 2016.

The gambling authority has instructed BetFTV to restore my balance.
I was then given an option to complete another 18000 worth of rollover and then withdraw my winnings.
Now, this was by no means perfect for me, as the agreements (terms) were previously without a doubt different from that.
However, it was acceptable to me, and it is certainly better than not receiving anything at this point, and having unresolved cases, money owed, and then lawsuits involved.

BetFTV has reinstated my balance, and seemed cooperative and open for communication (a positive change).

I have since then completed the extra rollover, and gotten a confirmation from them that I'm free to withdraw.

I have placed my withdrawal request; the sum is, in the end, 21 264€.
I am now awaiting to receive my winnings.

AskGamblers
posted on January 23, 2016.

Dear @Eagle ,

Any news? Thank you.

posted on January 23, 2016.

Yes, there are some new developments. After three more days they emailed me with a request for documents for verification.
They asked for my ID, a utility bill/bank statement, and a Skrill screenshot, as well as a notarized copy of my ID mailed (by post) to Curacao.
On the same day they received the first three via e-mail and the fourth one is in the mail already.

AskGamblers
posted on January 27, 2016.

Dear @Eagle,

Any new development? Thank you.

posted on January 27, 2016.

It will take some time for the ID to reach them. A week more or maybe 10 days, it is hard to say.

I will update here when that happens.

It might be noteworthy that other than the automatic reply i still haven't received a confirmation that my documents (the ones that I've e-mailed right away) have been fully checked verified. But there's still plenty of time.

AskGamblers
posted on March 7, 2016.

This case has been reopened upon player’s request since there are new information regarding this case.

posted on March 7, 2016.

They have received a notarized copy of my ID at the end of February. They signed the receipt.
So there is nothing left to do. All requests have been completed, and this course of action has, as well.
If they fail to comply next step will be the courts.

I haven't heard from them in the meantime, I sent them one mail about that, and gotten only an automated reply which you get whenever you contact them.

After the first note I sent them earlier, I have alerted their regulator on Friday (it is Monday today) about all this as well.
All steps have been taken, and this is quite an important case that'll show us all a lot.

I would also like to thank here for all the messages of support I've been getting on askgamblers. It is appreciated.
Askgamblers mentioned their policy is to reopen the complaint twice, which they've now done. I hope we will still agree on some way to inform everyone who's been following this case as to how it all ended.